The "S" or "8" Symbol: What's the difference?

[Radioflyer]

They painted themselves into a corner in "Rosetta" with the "rule them with strength" message and no it looks like they are about to make up an easy out.

[jesustlife]

If the 8 is the S kryptonians have no need to use the S...

Ok ok. The 8 is the S, but there is no reason why would a kryptonian need to use the S then. Ans the have. The S was the door out of the phantom zone, it was the toy crystal Clark used to trap phantoms, it was the thing Zor-El used to erase Kara's memory. Is there are reason for using it one way sometimes and the other on some other ocassion?

Originally posted by Radioflyer
They painted themselves into a corner in "Rosetta" with the "rule them with strength" message and no it looks like they are about to make up an easy out.

Does "rule them with strength" mean a negative thing? Strength is a positive quality. And Clark in a way ends up ruling the world, he's the one who catches the bad guys. He's like a judge, a cop, he's the law as Superman. HE RULES!!

[SmallFarmGirl]

Originally posted by clana4everfan2
haha this post make me laugh! But it's good info to know and important to explain to fans who are unsure..

Yeah, my head is spinning
But I agree, interesting and good info!

[xrayvision]

Re: If the 8 is the S kryptonians have no need to use the S...

Originally posted by jesustlife
Ok ok. The 8 is the S, but there is no reason why would a kryptonian need to use the S then. Ans the have. The S was the door out of the phantom zone, it was the toy crystal Clark used to trap phantoms, it was the thing Zor-El used to erase Kara's memory. Is there are reason for using it one way sometimes and the other on some other ocassion?

Like I said, the Kryptonian who would use an S is a human friendly one...Jor-El. He obviously had a lot of stuff going on Earth. And he knew of the Naman legend...how one of his family members down the line (not himself) would be raised on Earth. I think he created that symbol for Naman, i.e. Clark, his own son. Whether or not he knew his own son would be Naman is another story.

As to the crystal Clark got from Raya who got it from Jor-El and the one Zor-El used on Kara, I wouldn't be surprised if they were one and the same, meaning Zor-El stole it for his 1986 trip to Earth. If I'm right and that entire opening scene in Lara was a false memory implanted in Kara's mind by Jor-El to get her to help him (since she would not normally be disloyal to Zor-El & help out Jor-El), then the same crystal he gave Raya was probably stolen from him in the 1986 scene at the Kent House. The reason I think I'm right about that flashback in the opening scene is because while remembering those events, Kara blacked out and that plane almost hit her. I tend to think of that as a symptom of Jor-El's implanted memory, since things like that are not normal for a Kryptonian to experience. Other characters of Smallville have also blacked out due to mind experiments (Lex several times in Memoria and Kevin Grady--who also had memories implanted in his head in Blank).

As for the S appearing on the House of El exit console in the Phantom Zone...someone once said that if Zor-El was stuck in the Phantom Zone (whether or not that's the case), he would be able to get out because he is a member of the House of El. But I tend to think that Jor-El's distrust for his brother would make him deny access/entry to the Phantom Zone. So notice how the Phantom Zone exit console (that Clark put his bloody hand on) had the S symbol (Jor-El's symbol). That is a clue that it was made specifically for Jor-El's immediate family (because it was only his immediate family who had finally broken away from the 8 symbol that his ancestors used and adapted the S symbol) and those like Kara or Zor-El can not escape the Phantom Zone because Jor-El did not trust them after the events that caused the problems between him and his brother. So this would definitely draw a distinction between Jor-El's immediate family (himself, Lara, and Kal-El/Clark) and all other members of the House of El (such as Zor-El, and Kara). I guess that the S symbol in the Phantom Zone was programmed only to allow entry/exit to immediate family members and nobody else (not even those who used the 8 symbol). Maybe using it on that console in the PZ was the first time he used that symbol. And then he started using it for other things like the S crystal and more stuff to be seen in future episodes.

So what I'm saying is that certain things like the stones, the cave, and the FOS that contain the 8 symbol could be used by any member of the House of El, whereas other things like the PZ exit console could only be used by Jor-El's immediate family.

And eventually, Kara will sport that S symbol on her Supergirl suit, so Jor-El will probably accept her and give her entry/exit access to the Phantom Zone.

[queenelizabeth]

Wowww. I just thought Superman would look dumb marching into battle with a giant "8" on his chest.

[jesustlife]

Re: Re: If the 8 is the S kryptonians have no need to use the S...

Originally posted by xrayvision
Like I said, the Kryptonian who would use an S is a human friendly one...Jor-El.

Jor-El used the 8 on Clark, and in a preety though way, when he appeared to him the first time. If that is friendly, well...

[xrayvision]

^^Well, I do have a theory that says who has been in the ship, the cave, and the FOS all along (or at least perhaps until the episode Zod) was not Jor-El, but Zor-El.

It would be fitting that Zor-El's revenge on his brother for taking Lara away from him would be messing with the heart of the ship that contained the AI that would guide Clark in life so Clark would be raised the way Zor-El wanted (meaning Jor-El stole his would be wife, so Zor-El stole Jor-El's son as revenge).

Scenario 1:

It's very possible that Zor-El stole the heart to Clark's ship after Jor-El created it & added programming on his own on top of Jor-El's that would allow Clark to be raised in the way Zor-El wanted and that this layer of Zor-El coding was destroyed thanks to Brainiac infecting the FOS in Solitude (when the black Brainiac crystal was installed) or Vessel (when the dagger was thrown at Brainiac). So this would have caused Zor-El to lose control of the FOS, which would explain the dramatic change in attitude in "FOS Jor-El" when he spoke to Martha compared to all previous times we've seen the AI in the ship, the cave, and FOS (even in Vessel he told Clark to kill the vessel of Zod, something the will of the real Jor-El would probably not have wanted). Perhaps the blue crystal is Zor-El's chance to regain control of the FOS.

Basically, this theory means the first time we have really seen Jor-El's programming without any corruption by Zor-El's added code was in Zod.

Scenario 2

Or maybe the blue crystal contains Jor-El's programming that he gave to Kara in the opening scene of Lara, which mean he made Kara think it was Zor-El talking to her by implanting false memories into her mind (as was the case with Kevin Grady & his father in Blank) or by making his S crystal hypnotize her. I think a big clue to the implanted memory thing being true is how Kara blacked out in the midst of her flight, something not normal for Kryptonians. I think it's a symptom that Jor-El did that to her to get her to help him since she would never betray Zor-El and help Jor-El unless something like this was done to her. Furthermore, it means Jor-El could have also made a blue crysal identical to Zor-El's, but Jor-El's did not contain DNA, but programming with strictly his own AI to fix up the mess caused by Zor-El messing with the heart of the ship Jor-El created. So this means Zor-El was still there in Zod and once he lost Clark in the Phantom Zone, he did the only thing he could and saved Martha & Lois. As of Kara, he knows Kara is here with the crystal & he wants Clark to bring it to him so he can destroy it to prevent Jor-El from taking over the FOS.

Scenario 3

It was Jor-El's AI/programming/will in the ship, cave, and FOS all along, but the crystal is Zor-El's way of taking over the FOS. The real Zor-El could be trapped in the Phantom or Survival Zones and wants to get out, but can't get out of the Phantom Zone since it contains the S on the exit console, which as I said was only adapted by Jor-El & his immediate family (Jor-El, Lara, and Kal-El) and programmed not to work on anyone else's DNA but those 3 who adapted the symbol and he can't get out of the Survival Zone because Jor-El is in control of the FOS (the entry point on Earth from the Survival Zone) and is denying him access to Earth. Therefore Zor-El would need to rid the FOS of Jor-El and take control of it with his own AI at the helm of the FOS to grant his physical form access from the Survival Zone to Earth.

[Kal-EL1126]

So, if the kryptonian letter S/8 is the symbol for the house of EL why don't they use the kryptonian symbol/letter of E?

[TampaVille]

Early on, they used the \8/ because it was reminiscent of the Superman shield, but was still believably a Kryptonian symbol. As seasons progressed, and they got closer to Superman, they wanted to include the real Superman shield somehow. They had no way to reasonably work it into the story though, so they just added the \S/ symbol starting with Raya.

There is no explanation and no hidden meaning. It's just shortsighted writing. We've seen too much bad writing over the years that I can no longer give the writers credit for clever thoughts by default. Until we get some concrete reasons to believe there is meaning behind the different symbols, I think it's pretty safe to say that they're the same thing, and the only reason we saw more of the \8/ early on and see more of the \S/ now is simply because the show is more comfortable drawing a stronger connection to Superman now than they were in early seasons (and to be fair, perhaps rightfully so, in that extent).

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by TampaVille
There is no explanation and no hidden meaning. It's just shortsighted writing. We've seen too much bad writing over the years that I can no longer give the writers credit for clever thoughts by default. Until we get some concrete reasons to believe there is meaning behind the different symbols, I think it's pretty safe to say that they're the same thing, and the only reason we saw more of the \8/ early on and see more of the \S/ now is simply because the show is more comfortable drawing a stronger connection to Superman now than they were in early seasons (and to be fair, perhaps rightfully so, in that extent).

I don't think it's just short sighted writing because in Lara, both symbols were seen in the episode. If both Zor-El & Jor-El were shown using the S, then I would agree, but the 8 is still being used. I think there is a meaning. And I think it's to create a distinction between Jor-El's immediate family (which is himself, Lara and Clark) and all other members of the House of El. That's my opinion.

[litew8]

"Jerry Siegel and I came up with the 'S' insignia - we discussed it in detail. We said, 'Let's put something on the front of the costume.' From the beginning we wanted to somehow use the first letter of the character's name. We thought S was perfect. After we came up with it, we kiddingly said, 'Well, it's the first letter of Siegel and Shuster."

"Initially I made it like a shield, a fancy little triangle with curves at the top. I had a heraldic crest in the back of my mind."

"Progressively, as the strip evolved, the emblem became larger and larger."

- Joe Shuster

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
There are different explanations over the course of many years concerning the letter S and its meaning. But concentrating within Smallville and the possible reasoning used to explain both the S and the 8, here's what I'm thinking:

Somewhere durring the series, Clark says: "At first, I thought it (the emblem) was a family crest of some sort - but if it was, it certainly came to mean more than that to these people. Wars were fought over it. Entire cities were built on it. Over the course of time, it became a... a promise. A sign of people fighting to make a better world. A symbol of hope."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some people consider it a sign of Royalty. The El family was powerful. This could mean that the people of Krypton looked to Jor-El for guidance and direction. Meaning Jor-El was known as a great Scientist and great Leader. A man of peace. The \8/ symbol translated into English is the letter S. The reason why they are mixing both, showing the \8/ and S - just a way for viewers to understand that they are one in the same.

Of course, that doesn't explain why one of the Crystals (Air Element?) Clark was suppose to find has the \8/ symbol - if the symbol is suppose to represent something specific. As Clark mentioned in the series (abovementioned). Why were "Wars fought over it" and "Entire cities were built on it"? Does that mean that Jor-El directed people to fight against evil, and to build up cities - under his direction/leadership? I thought he was just a great scientist, and why would it be on a Crystal (an Element symbol)?

Am I way off, or?

[Radioflyer]

Re: If the 8 is the S kryptonians have no need to use the S...

Originally posted by jesustlife
Ok ok. The 8 is the S, but there is no reason why would a kryptonian need to use the S then. Ans the have. The S was the door out of the phantom zone, it was the toy crystal Clark used to trap phantoms, it was the thing Zor-El used to erase Kara's memory. Is there are reason for using it one way sometimes and the other on some other ocassion?



Does "rule them with strength" mean a negative thing? Strength is a positive quality. And Clark in a way ends up ruling the world, he's the one who catches the bad guys. He's like a judge, a cop, he's the law as Superman. HE RULES!!

No, RULE them does have a negative connotation. Superman nor anyone else has no business ruling without being elected.

Originally posted by litew8
"Jerry Siegel and I came up with the 'S' insignia - we discussed it in detail. We said, 'Let's put something on the front of the costume.' From the beginning we wanted to somehow use the first letter of the character's name. We thought S was perfect. After we came up with it, we kiddingly said, 'Well, it's the first letter of Siegel and Shuster."

"Initially I made it like a shield, a fancy little triangle with curves at the top. I had a heraldic crest in the back of my mind."

"Progressively, as the strip evolved, the emblem became larger and larger."

- Joe Shuster

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
There are different explanations over the course of many years concerning the letter S and its meaning. But concentrating within Smallville and the possible reasoning used to explain both the S and the 8, here's what I'm thinking:

Somewhere durring the series, Clark says: "At first, I thought it (the emblem) was a family crest of some sort - but if it was, it certainly came to mean more than that to these people. Wars were fought over it. Entire cities were built on it. Over the course of time, it became a... a promise. A sign of people fighting to make a better world. A symbol of hope."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some people consider it a sign of Royalty. The El family was powerful. This could mean that the people of Krypton looked to Jor-El for guidance and direction. Meaning Jor-El was known as a great Scientist and great Leader. A man of peace. The \8/ symbol translated into English is the letter S. The reason why they are mixing both, showing the \8/ and S - just a way for viewers to understand that they are one in the same.

Of course, that doesn't explain why one of the Crystals (Air Element?) Clark was suppose to find has the \8/ symbol - if the symbol is suppose to represent something specific. As Clark mentioned in the series (abovementioned). Why were "Wars fought over it" and "Entire cities were built on it"? Does that mean that Jor-El directed people to fight against evil, and to build up cities - under his direction/leadership? I thought he was just a great scientist, and why would it be on a Crystal (an Element symbol)?

Am I way off, or?

That's all well and good but what really matters is what TPTB are thinking when the use the S verse the 8 and what we are suposed to think is behind it. It seems now that the S device has the power to capture and detain evil phantoms and forcibly wipe minds.

[litew8]

^
So that is suppose to relate to the \S/ on Superman's chest?
He captures evil villans and it causes people to not recognize him?
That makes sense.
But it doesn't explain away why \8/ translates to the letter S.

[Mello Penelo]

Re: If the 8 is the S kryptonians have no need to use the S...

Originally posted by jesustlife
And Clark in a way ends up ruling the world, he's the one who catches the bad guys. He's like a judge, a cop, he's the law as Superman. HE RULES!!

Sorry, but Superman leaves the law to the justice system. He is not the law.

[Theshadow129x]

Re: Re: If the 8 is the S kryptonians have no need to use the S...

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
Sorry, but Superman leaves the law to the justice system. He is not the law.

^ Which is why Batman fights the way he does. He doesn't believe in the no good ways of American justice. People like Lex always get off because of their money. That's not justice. I love Superman but he really should take over the world to enforce new laws on their primitive ways of human justice. I know I would.