Lex Luthor is NOT evil

[All about Clark]

^First off, I don't see beating the crap out of someone until they lose all ability to stand upright an accident. And secondly, who are these many people Clark has killed?

And Lex's constant lies and deception has muddied his brain into him thinking that way. But he has made comments about not deserving Lana and in Bound that he deserved to die. So way deep down, Lex knows.

[wearetheborg]

Originally posted by Bookwrm17
Evilness is not in the eye of the beholder. Whatever a person is considered to be, whether they are good or evil is still defined by their actions.

The forefathers of US owned slaves. George Washington owned slaves. Was he an evil person ?
For owning slaves or supporting the slave trade by buying slaves ? Note that support of slave trade implies he was fine with slaves getting killed, maimed in inhumane conditions on the trip from Africa to US.

Britain pillaged its colonies. Gold and other precious metals were taken out of India in huge amounts.
The industrial revolution was sustained because Britain was able to exploit its colonies.

Ayotolla Khomeini had widespread support in Iran, and he was considered evil in US. Are the people in Iran all evil or all crazy ?

World Wars - were the german soldiers all evil ? If not, then wernt they being evil by killing the allied forces ?

What you consider evil may not be evil to another person.

Originally posted by Mischael12

Its not as unclear as we say it is/ the moment you start to exploit others and breach the confines of free will, and manipulation your evil.

This applies to the current president then

[Shadowknight]

Originally posted by wearetheborg
The forefathers of US owned slaves. George Washington owned slaves. Was he an evil person ?
For owning slaves or supporting the slave trade by buying slaves ? Note that support of slave trade implies he was fine with slaves getting killed, maimed in inhumane conditions on the trip from Africa to US.

Britain pillaged its colonies. Gold and other precious metals were taken out of India in huge amounts.
The industrial revolution was sustained because Britain was able to exploit its colonies.

Ayotolla Khomeini had widespread support in Iran, and he was considered evil in US. Are the people in Iran all evil or all crazy ?

World Wars - were the german soldiers all evil ? If not, then wernt they being evil by killing the allied forces ?

What you consider evil may not be evil to another person.



This applies to the current president then

I really don't understand this, why are you justifying being evil? Evil is evil, no eye of the beholder. Using that arguement, I could say "Hitler wasn't evil, he just wanted a pure society. The millions of people he slaughtered were just collateral damage"

Another thing: why are you trying to turn this thread political? Constantly bring up leaders and countries to justify being evil isn't going to help.

[wearetheborg]

Originally posted by Shadowknight

Another thing: why are you trying to turn this thread political? Constantly bring up leaders and countries to justify being evil isn't going to help.

I'm assuming that people of one nation are not more or less evil than those of other nations.

Given that, and given that all kinds of leaders keep getting support from the citizens of their countries, I'm concluding that evilness is indeed in the eye of the beholder.
Those questionable leaders had support because their citizens thought the actions were justified. It was not just pure finacial gain, something deep inside them said "this guy is doing the right thing"

Doesnt Lex get to a US president in the comics ?

[silverfist]

Well you say that evil is in the eye of the beholder. And I agree with that statement. It's obvious that no country, person or whatever sees themselves as "evil". Yet people use the term to describe others.

But I don't agree with your topic title since it clearly states: "Lex Luthor is NOT evil". Let's look up what the word "evil" means anyway.

evil
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

Lex has all these things in him in my opinion. And even though you may personally not think it's morally wrong to for example imprison and cause damage to innocent people for the "right" causes, there are others who would disagree. So it doesn't matter. Opinions differs. But I dare to claim that you're in a minority on this one if we're judging Lex's character by the definitions above.

[FotW]

Re: Lex Luthor is NOT evil

I agree that Lex is somewhere is between, after he is only human and makes wrong decisions and bad choices just like anyone else. Everything Lex has done (that I remember) with the exception of beating and accidently killing Lana's doctor in "Promise" and having his henchmen kill the meteor mutants in "Freak" has been justifiable in my opinion. In the context of the show, the meteors freaks and aliens have always been shown as athreat to humanity and need to be contained or defended against.
This is what Clark has to do every week. He has to fight and has also killed (or been responsible for) the death of meteor freaks such as Tina and he has killed aliens such as the Zoners. Lex wants to do the same thing, only he's not superpowered so he uses technology.
Also, Oliver Queen kidnapped Lex to experiment on him and that is exactly what Lex does to the meteor freaks. No one said Oliver was wrong because he's a "hero".

Originally posted by wearetheborg
Anyone think that Lex is not evil ?
He is not goody two shoes, but he is not all black either.
Lets look at things from his perspective.

Meteor freaks are popping all over the place.
Aliens dropped down on earth. They have technology unmatched by earthlings.
Blackout all over the world, satellites were taken out.
The kuwachi caves mystery.
And Lex only understands part of the puzzle.
Clark is not forthcoming.

If YOU were president, what would you do ?
Heck, the US invaded Iraq because of what Iraq COULD do.
Sure, he is experimentiing on mutants, and lying his way around, but thats just because he wants to accumulate power fast to battle evil (the situation is worse than X-Men, as here as hostile aliens are involved with a superior technology). Its called collateral damage.

Imagine if Clark were just a human, and there was no superpowerful being willing to fight for us (this is what Lex presumes). Wouldn't you want someone on our side who is willing to bend the rules a bit to get the job done ?

Finally, we have seen Lex's greatest fear - that he will go too far one day, and cause total destruction.

I think Lex is good.

[Heilige]

Originally posted by MozartRequiem
Leaving Lionel to die in the season four finale: callous and ruthless and almost evil.

Ok. So, Lana leaving Lex to die in the caves was callous and ruthless and almost evil?

Originally posted by Bookwrm17
Lex is evil. Period.

In Promise, he violently beats a man to death, hides the body, and is then able to go and look a preist in the eyes.

He orchestrated a mass extermination of meteor freaks, including those who had done nothing wrong besides be infected.

He conducted illegal and unethical experiments on said freaks.

He drugged the woman he loves to make her think she was pregnant in order to trick her into marrying him.

No matter how he may justify it to himself, Lex Luthor is one evil SOB.

And I wouldn't want him any other way.

When did he orchestrate a mass extermination of meteor freaks? Also, was it really a MASS extermination?

What are all of the illegal and unethical experiments he has done on freaks?

When Lex was beating the doctor, he wasn't trying to kill him, right? So, wouldn't that be an accident?

Lana never had to accept Lex's proposal in the first place though. What Lex did was def. wrong anyhow though.

Originally posted by Shadowknight
First off, Lex is responsible for HE does, not what other people do. Saying "well other people do it so it's OK" That's like saying doing drugs is ok but other people do it.

Second, I suggest you actually watch the episode "Resurrection " Clark's blood would only keep people alive for a short while before they suffer horrible pain and die again. Clark even considered coming forward until he learned this.

I've always lived by "you're responsible for you do and other people are responsible for what they do." call me old fashioned.

Fact is, Lex has murdered, tortured, lied, stolen, and commited countless other horrible atrocities all in the name of a blind justice that he is "protecting" people. When in reality he was really helping himself.

In this very episode he lied to a woman and kept her husband for experiments, and I have a feeling before the seasons end we will see his true motives.

In short, he's evil and there is no possible way for justifying it.

Could you please elaborate on all the times Lex has murdered, tortured, lied, sloten and commited other horrible atrocities all in the name of a blind justice that he is protecting people?

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by Heilige
When Lex was beating the doctor, he wasn't trying to kill him, right? So, wouldn't that be an accident?

He was indeed trying to kill him. He knew he would never let that doctor near Lana again and that meant killing him. And just because Lex was surprised by his own actions doesn't make them not intentional. Lex was going to see to it that that doctor never got a chance to talk, ever.

I really don't get this issue about being evil. A person is or isn't. Countries are not evil, they may have evil beings in control. A president can be evil and not his people. People can be tricked into not realized their president is evil. That still doesn't make those people evil. Please for conversation sake, don't confuse individuals who are evil with entire countries, it doesn't work.

[silverfist]

When Lex was beating the doctor, he wasn't trying to kill him, right? So, wouldn't that be an accident?

Oh. So what do you think he trying to do then? Let's take a look at that scene again, shall we?

Doctor: "...the truth...about her condition."

Lex: "For your sake, I hope I'm not understanding you."

*Bla bla*

Doctor: "Knowing what you kept from her, I wouldn't recommend putting her love to the test."

The doctor is leaving. Lex turns him around before he gets a chance and hits him straight in the face. And a second time. A third time. A forth time. Then he throws the doctor into a wall. Lex now punches him a fith time. 6...7...8...9....10...11 times.

Lex looks exhausted and stops hitting him for a moment.

"...I won't let you take her away from me...!"

*Lex raises his fist again*

*Doctor falls down (wow, suprise suprise), hits his head and dies*

Yeah. That was just a "mistake" wasn't it? Lol. Sure, Lex was perhaps not in full "control" of what he was doing, but it was pretty obvious to me that he had decided to kill him when he gave him that first blow. It does not make the doctor's death an accident just because Lex didn't need to finish what he had started. Because what else could he have done in that situation anyway? He would never have let the doctor ruin his wedding day...

[Heilige]

Originally posted by silverfist
Oh. So what do you think he trying to do then? Let's take a look at that scene again, shall we?

Doctor: "...the truth...about her condition."

Lex: "For your sake, I hope I'm not understanding you."

*Bla bla*

Doctor: "Knowing what you kept from her, I wouldn't recommend putting her love to the test."

The doctor is leaving. Lex turns him around before he gets a chance and hits him straight in the face. And a second time. A third time. A forth time. Then he throws the doctor into a wall. Lex now punches him a fith time. 6...7...8...9....10...11 times.

Lex looks exhausted and stops hitting him for a moment.

"...I won't let you take her away from me...!"

*Lex raises his fist again*

*Doctor falls down (wow, suprise suprise), hits his head and dies*

Yeah. That was just a "mistake" wasn't it? Lol. Sure, Lex was perhaps not in full "control" of what he was doing, but it was pretty obvious to me that he had decided to kill him when he gave him that first blow. It does not make the doctor's death an accident just because Lex didn't need to finish what he had started. Because what else could he have done in that situation anyway? He would never have let the doctor ruin his wedding day...

Then, why did Lex tell Lionel it was an accident? Lex didn't have to lie to Lionel if he really killed him. And on top of that, Lionel said Lex couldn't even plan a sucessful muder.

Lex just wanted to beat on him, not kill him. Lex should of just paid him off. That is what he did in the first place anyway. So why not continue that route?

Originally posted by All about Clark
He was indeed trying to kill him. He knew he would never let that doctor near Lana again and that meant killing him. And just because Lex was surprised by his own actions doesn't make them not intentional. Lex was going to see to it that that doctor never got a chance to talk, ever.

I really don't get this issue about being evil. A person is or isn't. Countries are not evil, they may have evil beings in control. A president can be evil and not his people. People can be tricked into not realized their president is evil. That still doesn't make those people evil. Please for conversation sake, don't confuse individuals who are evil with entire countries, it doesn't work.

Where have I confused countries and individuals?

[RedBullet]

It was definitely an accident, what would be the purpose of him telling Lionel it was an accident when he knows if he confessed Lionel wouldn't have done anything about it.....

[silverfist]

Then, why did Lex tell Lionel it was an accident? Lex didn't have to lie to Lionel if he really killed him. And on top of that, Lionel said Lex couldn't even plan a sucessful muder.

Why did he lie to Lionel about that? Well who knows. I would do the same though in that position. Why confess everything when you don't have to? But I for one would rather like to look at the actual event that took place anyway than the words of Lex. Lionel and Lex are are not really known for being open with each other are they?

Lex just wanted to beat on him, not kill him.

And what, exactly would he have gotten from that? The doctor threatened to reveal the truth to Lana. If Lex would have let him escape AFTER he had denied the doctor's offer with punching him in the face 11 times, then something tells me the doctor would have gladly ruined Lex's plans on living together with Lana.
Lex went paniced, almost out of control. He was desperate since he had very little time left until the actual marrige and someone stept in and demanded 2 million dollars or the truth comes out. He had only two options. And he picked to get rid off him.

Lex should of just paid him off. That is what he did in the first place anyway. So why not continue that route?

Perhaps. But then he could have asked for more money as well later on...giving him the upper hand on Lex. I guess Lex just did not tolerate anything like that.

[Heilige]

Originally posted by silverfist
Why did he lie to Lionel about that? Well who knows. I would do the same though in that position. Why confess everything when you don't have to? But I for one would rather like to look at the actual event that took place anyway than the words of Lex. Lionel and Lex are are not really known for being open with each other are they?



And what, exactly would he have gotten from that? The doctor threatened to reveal the truth to Lana. If Lex would have let him escape AFTER he had denied the doctor's offer with punching him in the face 11 times, then something tells me the doctor would have gladly ruined Lex's plans on living together with Lana.
Lex went paniced, almost out of control. He was desperate since he had very little time left until the actual marrige and someone stept in and demanded 2 million dollars or the truth comes out. He had only two options. And he picked to get rid off him.



Perhaps. But then he could have asked for more money as well later on...giving him the upper hand on Lex. I guess Lex just did not tolerate anything like that.

Those were very good points. If that's the case, why did Lex look surprised and like he was about to cry after the doctor died?

His intent was to kill him like you said?

[silverfist]

Those were very good points. If that's the case, why did Lex look surprised and like he was about to cry after the doctor died?

His intent was to kill him like you said?

Thanks. Well I guess this could be viewed in different ways, but in my opinion...the moment when Lex raised his fist for the last time and looked at the bloody face infront of him for some seconds, he started to realise what he was actually doing. He was actually on the way of beating this man to his death.

But this had been his choise and now he had to finish what he had to do. He was at the point of no return. The wedding was not far off and he simply could not let this man run loose now after he had denied his offer. He had no time to tie up the loose ends which he had just created without getting blood on his hands.

Even though he wouldn't have wanted it all to end up like this, he had to pick Lana and their life together before the doctor's. "I won't let you take her away from me"

So Lex had his fist raised...and...the doctor dropped to the floor, conveniently getting his head knocked in a stone. Lex instantly knew that it was over. He had now truly started to walk down his destined path and was shocked and horrified obviously. But at the same time he was also relieved at the fact that the doctor had fallen down in that way, since it meant no more mess to deal with. He suddenly realised that he had to get rid of the body though, and did his best to hide it with the little time he had left before the wedding.

I guess it's all about the situation. If the doctor had threatened Lex with the same thing let's say 2 days earlier, Lex could have figured out a way to get him out of the way nice and easily, perhaps locking him up somewhere. But because of the time pressure that he felt when the dilemma was presented to him, he had to act on his own.

[All about Clark]

When Lex met the doctor he felt he didn't need to kill him, but in the same token, he knew froms his fathers teachings not to pay him off as well. Lex felt trapped and snapped and with intent killed the doctor and was alarmed afterwards that he could do that. You could probably argue momentary insanity, but it is still manslaughter. And his intent might have been momentary but it was still there. And Lionel commented that Lex didn't take the time to perform a smart murder. That's the nuts and bolts of it.