"Mortal" - loved it? Hated it? What did you think?

[Freawaru]

The rational decision would have been to alert the government and actually hand over the ship as proof.

After they never even cared about the meteor infected and the danger they were to humankind in general? Would you trust such a government? It looks like they are just governing themselves - like in the BBC TV series "Yes, Minister".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister

To be honest I find it fascinating and exasperating how you draw your own fill-in-the-blanks-picture with obscure events on how Victor and Catherine split up just to defend Lex off the cushion.

I just know that prostheses do not put off people as much as depressions. And Victor was portrayed to be quite a severe case of mental instability after he survived his family.

I listened. I listened how he talked about love to Kreig after they caught Victor.

But Kreig was the guy who likely killed that other doctor who had let Victor escape. You don't expect Lex to not pretend that he was the evil overlord to somebody like that, do you? Lex uses villains, do you think he could do that if he went the moral route with them? Lionel had grown up among the criminals of Metropolis and learned how to behave himself among them. And he had taught this to Lex.

I listened when he talked to Victor about the chip - to me it was perfectly clear that this wasn't about "taking the edge off". Especially not in hindsight when I can see the "successful results" with Wes Keenan just one season later.

But there were no successful results with Wes Keenan. It was a complete disaster. The chip didn't work on real humans. If Lex had no qualms about testing it on Victor why had he still not perfected it a year later? He had enough humans in his power to test them on and could have kidnapped others at any time (nobody would have even looked for vanished people of the suicide slums of Metropolis for example).

And why didn't he use it on Chloe's mother? He could have kidnapped her by somebody who can go through walls (or be invisible or all those other meteor powers he had) and replaced her with a dead cloned body. Chloe would never have found out. She would just have been contacted by the institute that her mother had died by this or that accident or something. And Lex would have had her mother doing his every bidding.

If Lex is as inscrupulous as you say, why does he always hold back and go such inconvenient routes? He has all those powers at his command (invisibility and going through walls actually since season one) - why doesn't he use them in a ruthless way?

Lana - the girl who hated it when her boyfriend lied to her - hid the air stone from her new boyfriend and later went as far as blackmailing a scientist to impress her latest boyfriend.

She already used blackmail in season one - against that cafe, remember? - and Lana always wanted her boyfriends to be honest with her while never being honest with them. I mean, she still played the "I love you" role to Whitney while already having set her eyes on Clark, right?

All characters on Smallville have lived through tremendous ordeals, practically only comparable to people who lived during a civil war in their own country. It changes them.

And still they don't change that much. There is character development, true, but even in season six Lex still saves Clark's life (after Clark told him that Lana wanted to return to him, no less, in Nemesis) and in season seven he doesn't simply kidnap Kara when finding her. Why not?

Lex tried to be a good person, yes. But flashbacks into his past (Zero, Reunion) and glimpses only we viewers get to see that he's always been selfish and driven.

Zero portrayed him to show his friend that his friend's fiancee cheated on her even before the "seventh year". What is so bad about that? Should he have made it a profession instead of just showing it to somebody he cared about?

Reunion portrayed him to by loyal to a friend, who was an outcast in his school and attacked by Ollie and his gang all the time. Until he found a way to change that. But Duncan had his own plans and Lex's accumulated frustration exploded in a fit of anger. Yes, he can get angry and loose control. But we see that Duncan's body was not all that much damaged, unlike his trust into Lex. And Duncan was so confused he was hit in a car accident. You can accuse Lex of having an anger issue but not of being selfish and driven in this episode. It is not as if Harry Potter would never do something similar against Draco Malfoy and his gang when given a chance.

Who says that Lex actually feered to get shot by Earl Jenkins?

The situation was that the high school kids were being held hostage by Earl, and Lionel not willing to negotiate with him out of principle. Then Earl accidentally "initiated a bomb" that couldn't be stopped by him again. This was the moment Lex decided - against the explicit order of Lionel - to exchange himself as hostage of Earl. Earl let the kids go at the last moment and the gates closed. There was no way Lex could have survived, even if Earl had not shot him after Lex revealed that he would not give him what he wanted, the explosion would have killed him. And he knew that before going into the plant. Except for Clark's supersaving nothing could have saved Lex's life but Lex didn't know all that much about Clark's powers then.

Lex usually puts himself into the line of danger to protect those he cares about. It is part of his character to act like that.

you mean the actual episode where we see an unleashed Lex that decides it's a good idea to drop half a ton of concrete onto two teenagers to cover his tracks?

Yes. Takes quite a strong good side to balance that one, don't you think?

And pleeeaase don't tell me he knew Clark wouldn't get hurt because when Clark lifted that stone you could see his utter suprise and realisation dawning on his face. Why would he do that, there was no one there to watch him "react", no need to put on a show.

Lex looked surprised because to date he only knew about Clark's superstrengh. Not his invulnerability. Those meteor freaks that shared Clark's superstrengh were not invulnerable. They were two different powers.

Having an overpowered and powerless alien at your mercy with the element of suprise on your side seems to be a powerful incentive.

But also a risky one. Obviously, Lex was aware of the risk and had at least a plan B what to do with most of the vaccine after he was killed by Fine.

That's one of the fallacies of this whole plot. Lana witnessed these aliens to be bullet-proof. What would they need an (injectable!) vaccine for?

Bullet proof does not mean immunity to all of Earth's viruses. Viruses can also be inhaled or infect by food/water. And though bullets didn't penetrate, meteor rock and likely other alien substances did. Lex didn't find out much about the material of the Black Ship while he had it, right? There could have been many ways to inject a vaccine into the aliens. Or simply change it to be eaten.

But he also witnessed his father fail against the same two high-school students.

I don't know what you refer to. Can you please be more precise?

And where once upon a time he was their ally he can't have missed that the other Luthor is backing them now.

Yeah. Lionel was always impressed by sheer power. The power of Naman must have made him switch sides, working his way into the trust of Naman to be able to control him. Quite in character for Lionel to behave like that, I think.

The footage from the island of Corto Maltese looks like Green Arrow was deliberately showing himself and then destroying the camera as if to say "Hey look Lex, you can't hide these plants. And I'm coming after you.".

Do you believe Lex didn't know that Ollie was GA by then? I would think, given all the evidence (family crest, GA appearing wherever Oliver Queen went, etc) it should have been pretty obvious. Didn't take both Chloe and Lionel more than a day or so - why should Lex, with all his resources, have taken all that much longer. It is not as if they were careful and covering their tracks all that well.

He dealt with a super-fast data thief. I'll give it to Lex: the plan was simple and elegant. That's probably why it worked. Not one of these convoluted schemes that always backfire.

Yes, it worked. Looked like routine to me the whole time. And then he supposedly made all those mistakes like not seriously questioning Bart (letting him run is hardly the most efficient way and as Lex had been tortured himself a number of times he should know), like keeping Bart in Metropolis instead of sending him to a secret facility in the middle of nowhere, like choosing a facility close to water just so it would be convenient for AC to be part of the rescue team, and then he even made the mistake of planting the information of Bart's whereabouts in the internet where every hacker can find it - and all this knowing that there were those "terrorists", who had already blown up several of his facilities, looking for Bart, right?

No, Lex just wanted to know who Bart was, whether he was a meteor infected, how loyal he was to Ollie, and he wanted his DNA for his clone army. Letting him being "rescued" by Ollie's team was Lex's plan from the beginning.

BTW, acting and directing wise Bart certainly was not looking scared when completely in the power of Lex - and as he looked quite terrified when that guy in "Run" pointed his gun at him I think even Bart can be scared. So why wasn't Bart seriously worried that Lex would experiment on him and put a chip into his brain to add him to his army ?

Oh, suddenly you shy away from wild speculation?

Not at all. I just don't condemn a person before considering all options.

[DJ Doena]

I just know that prostheses do not put off people as much as depressions. And Victor was portrayed to be quite a severe case of mental instability after he survived his family.

When exactly? He was sad, yes. But who wouldn't be? But depressed. No.

Lex uses villains

And how does this make him a good guy? I don't know if you were here back then but both Martha and Chloe got quite a bit of heat for their alliances with the Black King / Suicide Squad.

But there were no successful results with Wes Keenan.

Oh yes there were. Wes killed a US Senator without blinking. If he hadn't run into Lois by chance the chip would not have malfunctioned. And even so, if it weren't for Clark Lois would still be dead thanks to the override command.

If Lex had no qualms about testing it on Victor why had he still not perfected it a year later?

Because it takes time? Victor said he wasn't the first test cyborg. I doubt Wes was the first test soldier.

And why didn't he use it on Chloe's mother?

Because emotionional blackmail is more efficient and cheaper?

If Lex is as inscrupulous as you say, why does he always hold back and go such inconvenient routes? He has all those powers at his command (invisibility and going through walls actually since season one) - why doesn't he use them in a ruthless way?

He does. Exhibit A: Senator Burke. And Lex actually does see himself as a good guy whose burden it is to protect the planet. And if he has to kill people for that then so be it. But just because someone sees himself in a certain light doesn't make it so.

And still they don't change that much. There is character development, true, but even in season six Lex still saves Clark's life (after Clark told him that Lana wanted to return to him, no less, in Nemesis) and in season seven he doesn't simply kidnap Kara when finding her. Why not?

See above.

Zero portrayed him to show his friend that his friend's fiancee cheated on her even before the "seventh year". What is so bad about that? Should he have made it a profession instead of just showing it to somebody he cared about?

If he cared so much about this girl, why did he even know she was dead? Keeping your distance because of this event is one thing, letting her drop off his radar even though he started this mess is another.

Reunion portrayed him to by loyal to a friend, who was an outcast in his school and attacked by Ollie and his gang all the time. Until he found a way to change that. But Duncan had his own plans and Lex's accumulated frustration exploded in a fit of anger. Yes, he can get angry and loose control. But we see that Duncan's body was not all that much damaged, unlike his trust into Lex. And Duncan was so confused he was hit in a car accident. You can accuse Lex of having an anger issue but not of being selfish and driven in this episode.

Lex tried to blackmail Olliver (who was an ass back then) and then pounded on his supposed best friend until he had to be pulled away by his own bullies! Duncan had severe cuts and bruises and from the looks of it a broken nose.

I happened to be in a similar situation as Lex during my school years (well, except for the rich kids boarding school) and I would have never alligned with my bullies against my friend.

Lex usually puts himself into the line of danger to protect those he cares about. It is part of his character to act like that.

I never said that Lex was the devil. He just developed into a bad person. None of the characters on Smallville were all good and no one was all evil. But Clark and Lex ended up on different sides of the same scale.

Lex looked surprised because to date he only knew about Clark's superstrengh. Not his invulnerability.

From season 1 to last seen at the last episode of season 3 Lex had a simulation that showed Lex's Porsche crashing into Clark and through the bridge railing. You claim that Lex knew almsot everything about Clark all along. Well if he did than his invulnerability was one thing he knew for sure.

Bullet proof does not mean immunity to all of Earth's viruses. Viruses can also be inhaled or infect by food/water. And though bullets didn't penetrate, meteor rock and likely other alien substances did. Lex didn't find out much about the material of the Black Ship while he had it, right? There could have been many ways to inject a vaccine into the aliens. Or simply change it to be eaten.

Why, oh why would an alien race who was obviously able to survive on Earth for months (Milton Fine!) that has the ability to space-travel and can move faster than a speeding bullet (all facts known to Lex) need an Earth crap manufacturer and weapons company to build this vaccine?

I don't know what you refer to. Can you please be more precise?

It was essentially Chloe's testimony about Lionel's confession and Clark's testimony* about Lionel's brainwashing methods that put Lionel in jail.


*Clark lied by the way. OK, the character may not have lied, but the writers did. Clark testified that he heard Lionel order the doctors to increase the electroshock voltage. But a) Lionel only ordered to do it again and b) Clark was still battling with Eric Summers at that moment and only arrived after the procedure had been completed.

Do you believe Lex didn't know that Ollie was GA by then?

Yes I know. Lex knew everything about everyone...

I would think, given all the evidence (family crest, GA appearing wherever Oliver Queen went, etc) it should have been pretty obvious. Didn't take both Chloe and Lionel more than a day or so - why should Lex, with all his resources, have taken all that much longer. It is not as if they were careful and covering their tracks all that well.

Chloe only could track the crest because Lois napped the ring. No one else even knew that there was this connection. And Chloe only made the connection after Jimmy told her about a failed plan to expose GA=Oliver but GA appeared to be a supower-powered Kryptonian under a hood.

As far as I know Lionel-1 never learned that GA=Oliver. And Lionel-2 only knew because it was public knowledge by the time he arrived on Earth-1.

Yes, it worked. Looked like routine to me the whole time. And then he supposedly made all those mistakes like not seriously questioning Bart (letting him run is hardly the most efficient way and as Lex had been tortured himself a number of times he should know), like keeping Bart in Metropolis instead of sending him to a secret facility in the middle of nowhere, like choosing a facility close to water just so it would be convenient for AC to be part of the rescue team, and then he even made the mistake of planting the information of Bart's whereabouts in the internet where every hacker can find it - and all this knowing that there were those "terrorists", who had already blown up several of his facilities, looking for Bart, right?

No, Lex just wanted to know who Bart was, whether he was a meteor infected, how loyal he was to Ollie, and he wanted his DNA for his clone army. Letting him being "rescued" by Ollie's team was Lex's plan from the beginning.

Sorry but that's just pure fanwanking and not supported by anything seen on the show.

Not at all. I just don't condemn a person before considering all options.

No, you defend him at all cost and against all reason.


I have my beef with most characters on this show and I don't have a problem with calling them out when they screwed up like I did here with Jonathan.

You would probably argue that Lex setting Simone on Clark was an act of a good friend who saw that his relationship with Lana would never work and thus had to end. And then to prevent that they would get together again he took the burden upon himself and started dating Lana. And to make sure that Clana would never hurt each other again he made Lana think she's pregnent because he knew Clark would do the decent thing and back off. And killing Lana's OB/GYN was justified because he tried to blackmail him. You see? Lex never did anything wrong at all....

[Freawaru]

When exactly? He was sad, yes. But who wouldn't be? But depressed. No.

Then all his irrational "I should have died with my family" talk didn't make you consider that he suffered from survivor's guilt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivor_guilt

And how does this make him a good guy? I don't know if you were here back then but both Martha and Chloe got quite a bit of heat for their alliances with the Black King / Suicide Squad.

Because even Captain Picard of the USS Enterprise would act the villain when necessary. Remeber, I come from the Science fiction side of Smallville fans. There are many examples of good guys pretending to be a villain to get important information or prevent a disaster. Martha and Chloe are both reasonable characters who know what is at stake.

Oh yes there were. Wes killed a US Senator without blinking. If he hadn't run into Lois by chance the chip would not have malfunctioned. And even so, if it weren't for Clark Lois would still be dead thanks to the override command.

I meant from the point of view of the chip working as planned. It malfunctioned as you said. But not because of a processing defect but because it was not designed for humans. Lex's scientists were completely non-plussed by it at first and had to speculate on what might have gone wrong, taking into consideration that the reason of the malfunction was that Wes had a personality and memories - unlike the clones it was constructed for. Obviously, the chip never provided that problem before as it would have if they had tested it on real humans before putting it into Wes.

Because it takes time? Victor said he wasn't the first test cyborg.

That is right. The others died because their original injuries were too severe.

I doubt Wes was the first test soldier.

I don't see anything that confirms your opinion. And a lot that speaks against it.

Because emotionional blackmail is more efficient and cheaper?

More efficient and cheaper than a chip Lex put into all his soldiers of his army? I don't see how this could be possible. Please explain your idea.

He does. Exhibit A: Senator Burke.

Erm, yes. A senator who had been bribed by Luthorcorp for several years, who at first was willing to join a project designed to save Earth from another alien attack but then backed off because there was a mole in Luthorcorp and he feared he would loose his job. And not to forget a senator who had hired a professional hitman to kill Lana - who happened to be the mole. He was hardly an innocent and played it "hard ball" with the Luthors as Chloe would have called it.

And Lex actually does see himself as a good guy whose burden it is to protect the planet. And if he has to kill people for that then so be it. But just because someone sees himself in a certain light doesn't make it so.

But the characters in the show accuse him of other motives than you are. It is not the discussion of means but of motives. In fact, we see all characters willing to kill somebody if the stakes are high enough. Martha and Lana are willing to kill Lex, Chloe is willing to kill Tess, Ollie is willing to kill Lex. And Clark himself is willing to kills Wes to save Lois and Dr Knox to save Lex. Why is Lex so different and ultimate evil if he just does what everybody else does, too?

See above.

For a person in Lex's position time is money. He personally spend time with Kara for several days. It lost him more money than any use of his clone soldiers to kidnap Kara would ever have.

If he cared so much about this girl, why did he even know she was dead? Keeping your distance because of this event is one thing, letting her drop off his radar even though he started this mess is another.

Yes. I guess you can accuse him of that. Pure evil to let somebody one likes to drop off one's radar.

And the mess was started by Jonas (from Stargate, forgot the SV character's name). It was him who cheated on his fiancee. Lex only showed her what kind of guy he was.

Lex tried to blackmail Olliver (who was an ass back then) and then pounded on his supposed best friend until he had to be pulled away by his own bullies! Duncan had severe cuts and bruises and from the looks of it a broken nose.

Boys fight - so do girls. Harry was quite proud of Hermione when she punched Draco.

I happened to be in a similar situation as Lex during my school years (well, except for the rich kids boarding school) and I would have never alligned with my bullies against my friend.

Whitney was quite a bully, too, and Clark did not only ally with him but even saved his life. He could have let Whitney die and have Lana - as Lex pointed out to him. After what Whitney had done to Clark and how he treated him it would have been understandable. But Clark still chose to save Whitney.

BTW, Lex did not ally with Ollie against Duncan. The plan - and Ollie had agreed to it - was that BOTH Lex and Duncan would not be bullied by Ollie again. Lex had protected Duncan - but it was Duncan who wanted a full revenge (Ollie having to leave school in disgrace). Lex is not vengeful, but Duncan was. That was the reason for their disagreement on what to do with the information about Ollie and his gang. Lex was satisfied with them both not being bullied any more but Duncan wanted Ollie and all those who had hurt him to suffer.

I never said that Lex was the devil.

At least something we agree on.

I think Lex is the "Destroyer" part of The Traveler. At least that is what the later episodes of season seven and some in season eight suggest. Both Lionel and Edward Teaque considered Lex to be The Traveler, that was why Edward tried to kill him after he thought he had killed the "Saviour" part of the Traveler, namely Clark.

He just developed into a bad person.

And I disagree here. A bad person would have behaved differently. Very differently.

None of the characters on Smallville were all good and no one was all evil. But Clark and Lex ended up on different sides of the same scale.

I think they both worked for the same goal but were just willing to use different means when necessary. But even after he killed Lionel Lex rather lets this watchmaker go with all the secret information he has than kill him as even the watchmaker himself expected. That is not a bad guy to me.

From season 1 to last seen at the last episode of season 3 Lex had a simulation that showed Lex's Porsche crashing into Clark and through the bridge railing. You claim that Lex knew almsot everything about Clark all along. Well if he did than his invulnerability was one thing he knew for sure.

There are other possible explanations. Superhealing for example. Clark also might have used his superstrengh to push himself away from the Porsche instead of getting hit by it.

I think at that point he only knew superstrenght for sure. And also his meteor rock weakness of course. And he might have speculated about other powers because Clark gave him many reasons to suspect other abilities - such as when he claimed that Lex's watch was not in the room just after sweeping the room with his supervision. But it seems that just as Clark was not willing to consider Lex being Sageeth for months, Lex was not willing to consider Clark to be Naman for months. But as evil Lex said to Clark: it was all there.

Why, oh why would an alien race who was obviously able to survive on Earth for months (Milton Fine!) that has the ability to space-travel and can move faster than a speeding bullet (all facts known to Lex) need an Earth crap manufacturer and weapons company to build this vaccine?

That was exactly the question that bothered Lex so much for weeks. One of those great Lex-Brainiac dialogues.

It was essentially Chloe's testimony about Lionel's confession and Clark's testimony* about Lionel's brainwashing methods that put Lionel in jail.

Yes, but without Lex being the one to pay the lawyers and keep the FBI agent Lionel had bribed from them they would not have been able to do anything. If it just had been Chloe and Clark going to court Lionel would have managed to get out.

Just shows how powerful they are if they actually work together for a change. I would like to see this again.

*Clark lied by the way. OK, the character may not have lied, but the writers did. Clark testified that he heard Lionel order the doctors to increase the electroshock voltage. But a) Lionel only ordered to do it again and b) Clark was still battling with Eric Summers at that moment and only arrived after the procedure had been completed.

What is one more lie to Clark if it suits his goals.

Yes I know. Lex knew everything about everyone...

No, but if one keeps collecting all the information we are shown him to have or to get easily and consider what he could have reasoned out by them it was quite a lot.

Chloe only could track the crest because Lois napped the ring.

I don't mean the ring (though Lex might have indeed have copied the picture from Chloe's computer before Clark deleted it - he always monitored Chloe's activities - their "soft ball" game as Chloe calls it) But Lionel knew the family crest and also that Ollie had already been more than fond of bows as a kid. And he already knew that it had been Ollie who kidnapped Lex. All information Chloe did not have, btw.

Sorry but that's just pure fanwanking and not supported by anything seen on the show.

It was shown that Lionel reprimanded Lex about those six 33.1 facilities the terrorists compromised. It was shown that Lex was more interested in Bart's speed and endurance than in the identity of his employer, who after all was one of those terrorists. It was shown that Lex held Bart in a factory in the haven of Metropolis instead of sending him to the middle of nowhere on the other side of the planet. It was shown that Chloe was able to find out the whereabouts of Bart by just using her DP computer. Where do you see fanwank ? It was all right there in the show.

No, you defend him at all cost and against all reason.

I am sorry if I came across as that. I don't see him as a saint and he has this anger issue and at times does not think his plans through, but I do think that most of the things the characters accuse him to have done he didn't do and his motives are a bit more complex than "all selfish and evil".

I have my beef with most characters on this show and I don't have a problem with calling them out when they screwed up like I did here with Jonathan.

I agree about Jonathan. He had his good sides but he was hardly the saint everybody in the series thought him to be. Or he considered himself to be at that.

You would probably argue that Lex setting Simone on Clark was an act of a good friend

It is really not that difficult to psychoanalyse Lex. One just has to take both sides of him into consideration and what course of action they might agree on. IMO, the plot with Simone had several different motives: He wanted Clark and Lana separate (evil Lex), he wanted Clark to finally make up his mind about Lana and stop hurting her like he did (good Lex). He wanted to control Simone (evil Lex) and he wanted to find out more about Milton Fine (good Lex). So sending Simone to Clark must have seemed a useful course of action to him, to both his sides, so useful that again he didn't think through his plan, namely that maybe it was not that good an idea regarding his OWN security to put Clark's powers into the hands of someone who had killed her father and who he blackmailed into cooperation.

who saw that his relationship with Lana would never work and thus had to end. And then to prevent that they would get together again he took the burden upon himself and started dating Lana.

He might have not tried if the Clana had worked and Lana had not come to him about every day to cry because of Clark, but after Onyx and Lexmas it was clear that he was fascinated by Lana, too.

And to make sure that Clana would never hurt each other again he made Lana think she's pregnent because he knew Clark would do the decent thing and back off.

No. After so many visions and warnings that Lex himself might turn against humankind one day (him being Sageeth, the visions of his mother) he wanted a replacement of himself who would be able to prevent the worst if the prophesie came true. He chose Lana because he knew she was capable, protective, had some unusual powers, highly intelligent and the same attetude of "goals justify the means - at least if humankind as a whole is at stake" as him. And also because Clark thought well of her. All through season six we see him teaching and instructing her how to survive in his world and come out on top, it is the B-story in several episodes. And she was an apt pupil as we see in season seven and eight. His way of teaching her is similar to how Lionel taught him in season one to three. One of Lionel's final lessons was: never to let anybody drug or poison you, Lex. Lex chose hormons (and likely the two Lexes agreed on this because it also enhanced the chance that she might marry him) - but the result is the same. Lana won't be easily poisoned, ever.

I don't know if he considered Clark doing the decent thing here. Might have though. I mean, Jonathan would not have encouraged Lana to not marry the father of her child, right? But Clark never could think straight when it came to Lanalanalanalanalana.

And killing Lana's OB/GYN was justified because he tried to blackmail him.

Anger issue again. And yes, I agree with Lionel that it was a sloppy way of dealing with the situation.

You see? Lex never did anything wrong at all....

Let's keep practicing like this and we can indeed consider a career as lawyers.

[DJ Doena]

Then all his irrational "I should have died with my family" talk didn't make you consider that he suffered from survivor's guilt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivor_guilt

And Lex said "I should be dead but here I stand" in Reunion. Never known him to visit a psychiatrist after Shattered.

Because even Captain Picard of the USS Enterprise would act the villain when necessary. Remeber, I come from the Science fiction side of Smallville fans. There are many examples of good guys pretending to be a villain to get important information or prevent a disaster. Martha and Chloe are both reasonable characters who know what is at stake.

Yeah but they don't play the bad guy for seasons on end. And again, Sisko got quite a lot of heat from the fandom when he played Javert to Michael Eddington's Valjean and made that entire planet uninhabitable for Humans (but not for Cardassians).

Let's face it. In the planet of hats universe of Star Trek, Lex would be Cardassian.

That is right. The others died because their original injuries were too severe.

Victor is not a completely reliable source but he is the only on-screen source we have at all. And his statement was the he was the first one to survive their experiements.

I don't see anything that confirms your opinion. And a lot that speaks against it.

That lot being? Senator Burke himself stated that the project had left the testing phase and was about to get into mass production.

More efficient and cheaper than a chip Lex put into all his soldiers of his army? I don't see how this could be possible. Please explain your idea.

Why risk a risky operation on a meteor freak you already have to keep awake by using drugs when you can just say "Do it or I kill your daughter"?

Erm, yes. A senator who had been bribed by Luthorcorp for several years, who at first was willing to join a project designed to save Earth from another alien attack but then backed off because there was a mole in Luthorcorp and he feared he would loose his job. And not to forget a senator who had hired a professional hitman to kill Lana - who happened to be the mole. He was hardly an innocent and played it "hard ball" with the Luthors as Chloe would have called it.

Somewhere in there seems to be an argument that it my legal right to have someone killed just because he doesn't want to work with me anymore. Lex is not the law, he can't just go around having people executed at his whim. No matter how you spin it.

But the characters in the show accuse him of other motives than you are. It is not the discussion of means but of motives. In fact, we see all characters willing to kill somebody if the stakes are high enough. Martha and Lana are willing to kill Lex, Chloe is willing to kill Tess, Ollie is willing to kill Lex. And Clark himself is willing to kills Wes to save Lois and Dr Knox to save Lex. Why is Lex so different and ultimate evil if he just does what everybody else does, too?

Most people that threaten to kill or actually kill other people on the show are either under influence or in a combat situation. I'd never hold the death of the Static freak against Lex even when Lex held the Static freak prisoner without having the right.

But Lex orders other people to be stabbed in the back and have it blamed on the pizza brigade.

And if someone is killed when it was not a case of self-defense then it has severe consequences. In case you missed it but there was an entire arc about the ramnifications of Oliver killing Lex.

For example: I hated it when Clark used his heat vision against the T-1000 in Gone. I thought it was unjustified even though he could not have predicted the result. In Pariah it was justified because he was short before asphyxiation and in Prototype Chloe told him that nothing short of a mini-nuke would stop Wes.

BTW: There's your on-screen evidence of Wes not being the first. Chloe told Clark that Oliver encountered an earlier prototype in the Nevada desert.

For a person in Lex's position time is money. He personally spend time with Kara for several days. It lost him more money than any use of his clone soldiers to kidnap Kara would ever have.

And then what? Kara was as human as Clark was in Mortal. He would have gotten nowhere with her. Getting her trust almost got him what he wanted (see Hero).

And the mess was started by Jonas (from Stargate, forgot the SV character's name).

I call him Parker Lewis because I can't remember either.



Boys fight - so do girls. Harry was quite proud of Hermione when she punched Draco.

Whitney was quite a bully, too, and Clark did not only ally with him but even saved his life. He could have let Whitney die and have Lana - as Lex pointed out to him. After what Whitney had done to Clark and how he treated him it would have been understandable. But Clark still chose to save Whitney.

What's your point in regard to my argument? Did Clark assault Pete to be pretend-friends with Whitney?

BTW, Lex did not ally with Ollie against Duncan. The plan - and Ollie had agreed to it - was that BOTH Lex and Duncan would not be bullied by Ollie again. Lex had protected Duncan - but it was Duncan who wanted a full revenge (Ollie having to leave school in disgrace). Lex is not vengeful, but Duncan was.

Huh. Suddenly doing the right thing is revenge? In the case of the Zero girl you just argued that Parker Lewis was the one starting the mess because he was unfaithful and Lex exposing him was just a service to his girlfriend. Now that Lex is not the whistleblower it's not a good thing anymore?

I think Lex is the "Destroyer" part of The Traveler.

I hate Traveler arc. It's a shoe-horned retcon that makes no sense given Lionel's behaviour in the earlier seasons.

----- Added 25 Minutes later -----

There are other possible explanations. Superhealing for example. Clark also might have used his superstrengh to push himself away from the Porsche instead of getting hit by it.

And what makes this any different from the lab dropping on him? If Lex knew there could be no way he'd be surprised by this.

Yes, but without Lex being the one to pay the lawyers and keep the FBI agent Lionel had bribed from them they would not have been able to do anything. If it just had been Chloe and Clark going to court Lionel would have managed to get out.

Yes and now they have Lionel as an ally. My point exactly. Chlark and a powerful backer is a dangerous combination, even to a Luthor.

What is one more lie to Clark if it suits his goals.

Lex can do no evil, but Clark is the Dark Lord. Yup, that's Smallville's message alright. [/sarcasm]

And he already knew that it had been Ollie who kidnapped Lex.

He supsected it. He did not know it.

It was shown that Lex was more interested in Bart's speed and endurance than in the identity of his employer, who after all was one of those terrorists.

Lex specifically asked Bart about his employer!

It was shown that Lex held Bart in a factory in the haven of Metropolis instead of sending him to the middle of nowhere on the other side of the planet.

According to the map, Lex has dozens of facilities in Metropolis alone. He needed him close to interogate him. Shipping him off he could always do later.

It was shown that Chloe was able to find out the whereabouts of Bart by just using her DP computer.

Nope, not her computer. She had dozens of printouts of internal LuthorCorp documents (I doubt you'll find shipping documents and order forms of any company online).

but I do think that most of the things the characters accuse him to have done he didn't do

My problem with the show (from a real-world perspective) is that Lex got a lot of heat when he didn't do any evil yet. Especially from Jonathan and Lex (like when Lex helped Ryan and Clark immediately accused him of trying to exploit Ryan).

But from season 5 on (and let's face it, with TV series we mostly have to think in seasons) he started doing more and more morally grey, cruel and evil things. Like when he tried to threaten to get Milton Fine fired because he was looking into LuthorCorp's more shadier businesses. By that time he didn't know anything about Fine and just saw him as a threat to his company's illegal activities (and yes they were illegal because Fine counter-blackmailed him with it in Thirst).

And Brainiac exactly predicted Lex's response to him.

his motives are a bit more complex than "all selfish and evil".

Complex? Yes. Still doesn't make him a good guy.

He might have not tried if the Clana had worked and Lana had not come to him about every day to cry because of Clark, but after Onyx and Lexmas it was clear that he was fascinated by Lana, too.

That was already heavily implied by Jinx when Lex did not answer Clark why he got jason fired in the first place. And you could see it in his eyes that he was not the reason he gave Lana one episode later (Spell) and certainly not the reason he gave Genevieve Teague in Pariah where he claimed that he would not interfer in affairs of the heart (disproved by at least Cool, Craving and Zero).

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

Imo even if you think Lex's methods are what needs to be done you shouldn't call him a good guy. Even if Earth was at war with some alien race and Lex's actions were justified he'd still be a war criminal when all is said and done.

He orchestrates kidnappings, torturing and killings not to mention other crimes against humanity (bringing the dead back to life to act as his zombie puppets more or less).

[MozartRequiem]

Hey all; very interesting debates here. The fact that we're even having this discussion about Lex Luthor--one of the foremost symbols of evil pop literature--clearly says volumes about Michael Rosenbaum's layered performance and the complex writing of the writers on this show.

That being said, however, I do believe the show made it very clear that Lex Luthor is by no means a "good guy" anymore, as that would defeat the whole purpose of his tragic character arc. While Clark's journey was about learning lessons of compassion from his parents and overcoming his issues so that he could become the ultimate hero and symbol of light, Lex's arc was the complete opposite: learning lessons about ruthlessness from his father, absorbing and embracing his issues to become the ultimate "bearer of darkness". Lex started out as one of the good guys, in fact a genuine hero in the early seasons, if you ask me. But he slowly turned into a man who was willing to experiment on human beings, invoke psychological torture on his wife, murder his flesh and blood, and destroy just about anyone who got in his way. What Freawaru is saying about not condemning someone is definitely a good point for us to be conscience of, especially in our daily lives, but I also think that it can be dangerous for us if we try *too* hard to make excuses for clearly bad behavior. We need to find that fine balance, and I think that's what's so brilliant about how the series portrayed Lex: it found that balance. The series ended on that deliciously ambiguous note for Lex: while he may be "evil" by most standards, he is still trying to save the world in the end. Showing us that there exists humanity in even the darkest of souls. But let's not let that skew our thoughts too quickly in his favor. Remember, if we put Lex Luthor in office, we could all be added to his growing heap of bodies left in his wake...

Aaand on that note, off to bed so I can dress up as Lex in the early morning for San Diego Comic Con! Haha. Hope to see some of you there.

[Freawaru]

And Lex said "I should be dead but here I stand" in Reunion.

And here I thought it was his way of saying "thank you for saving my life" to Ollie.

Never known him to visit a psychiatrist after Shattered.

Can't blame him.

And no, I don't blame Victor either, but I still think that this was the reason he and his girlfriend split. Lex isn't exactly the best boyfriend or husband, either.

Yeah but they don't play the bad guy for seasons on end.

That is right. SV went a new route here. But it fits nicely with Lex Luthor's iconic status as evil overlord. And we see other science fiction character who play the villain for example in Alias, Jack Bristow comes to mind. Sure, he was not the leader of SD6 but quite high in the hierachy nevertheless, strongly relying on his reputation as cruel and accomplished assasin. Still, he was a CIA agent undercover.

And again, Sisko got quite a lot of heat from the fandom when he played Javert to Michael Eddington's Valjean and made that entire planet uninhabitable for Humans (but not for Cardassians).

<shrugg>. Fans complain all the time. It is part of the fun for us and make us discuss it. And everybody has different ideas on every subject. It was like this in the DS9 discussion forum and it is still like this here.

Let's face it. In the planet of hats universe of Star Trek, Lex would be Cardassian.

Oh, no doubt about that. Did I mention that I never was quite sure if the Cardassians or the Klingons are my fav species on Star Trek? I also think that Lionel would have made a really good Nietzschean in Gene Roddenberry's "Andromeda". Especially as his "bible" is "Beyond Good and Evil".

Victor is not a completely reliable source but he is the only on-screen source we have at all. And his statement was the he was the first one to survive their experiements.

Yes, but they would have tested the technique on animals first to prevent it from killing humans. It is highly unlikely that the technique itself lead to the deaths of them. They used people, who almost died in an accident and had no chance of survival otherwise. I think, Victor's hurts were just a bit less severe than those of the others.

That lot being? Senator Burke himself stated that the project had left the testing phase and was about to get into mass production.

And he was right, was he not? Lex already had his meteor powered clone army and now wanted a multiple powers soldier to be able to beat Kryptonians.

Why risk a risky operation on a meteor freak you already have to keep awake by using drugs when you can just say "Do it or I kill your daughter"?

He never said that. He said she could see her daughter if she cooperated. He even gave her something to contact Chloe with her powers.

He could have kidnapped her and replaced her with a dead clone as I said, so that Chloe would not have looked for her. And without the - was it a necklace of Chloe? I forgot what exactly it was that belonged to her - her mother would not have been able to reach Chloe and manipiulated her. And then, he could have threatened to kill Chloe if her mother would not cooperate. Or implanted the chip that you believe he already had tested sucessfully on humans.

Somewhere in there seems to be an argument that it my legal right to have someone killed just because he doesn't want to work with me anymore.

No, I would never call that a "legal" right. But "legal" isn't quite in the vocabulary of the heroes, either. Clark is illegally on Earth to begin with. He breaks and enters into private properties all the time, not to mention Chloe, Lois, and Ollie. It was hardly legal when Lois snooped in Lex's CEO room in Luthorcorp and when Lex catches her all he just says is "I guess I have to improve my security".

Seriously, if even our heroes are not law-abiding citicens - why should we expect somebody like Lex to be it?

Lex is not the law, he can't just go around having people executed at his whim. No matter how you spin it.

The law cannot have people executed at it's whim.

Most people that threaten to kill or actually kill other people on the show are either under influence or in a combat situation.

Since he knew about the coming alien invasion Lex was pretty much in a combat situation all the time. And I think they really could have used his clone army in that future where Zod had turned the sun red. I mean a few invisible clones or some with Bart's superspeed (or teleporters) and some kryptonite weapons and humankind would not have been on the brick of extinction. Lex's intented goal for creating his meteor powere clone army was to keep the meteor infected from killing and to fight against Kryptonians. He succeed in both - illegally.

I'd never hold the death of the Static freak against Lex even when Lex held the Static freak prisoner without having the right.

As I said before, the government severely failed in it's duty to it's people by not dealing with the meteor infection years before Lex took an interest. This kind of failing is usually the situation that leads to revolutions. By dealing with the meteor infection secretly himself Lex actually prevented a revolution with many deaths and even the government is still intact. If he would be sentenced to prison for it - so be it. It was still the right thing to do given the circumstances.

But Lex orders other people to be stabbed in the back and have it blamed on the pizza brigade.

Standart procedure. Lionel calls it "covering the tracks". They were probably proud of the public attention.

And if someone is killed when it was not a case of self-defense then it has severe consequences. In case you missed it but there was an entire arc about the ramnifications of Oliver killing Lex.

I did not miss it but I never saw the point. Either Ollie considered himself right in killing Lex because Lex was a serious danger to everybody - or not. And if he considered himself right - what was the big deal? It was not only self-defense but even civil courage. And if he didn't think it was justified why did he kill him in the first place? It seemed to me that Ollie knew that his motive to kill Lex was NOT to prevent Lex from further killings but for other reasons and that was what the arc was about. Ollie hated Lex, personally, and didn't act out of protective reasons but out of feelings of hate and revenge.

For example: I hated it when Clark used his heat vision against the T-1000 in Gone. I thought it was unjustified even though he could not have predicted the result. In Pariah it was justified because he was short before asphyxiation and in Prototype Chloe told him that nothing short of a mini-nuke would stop Wes.

But he could have gone to Lex and told him that he saw "somebody, maybe a meteor freak with several powers, kidnapping Lois" or something like that. Seriously, Lex never attacked any of Clark's friends. Why didn't he just give him the chance to rectify the situation as he used to? Instead, he went to Lanalanalana and got some half truths.

BTW: There's your on-screen evidence of Wes not being the first. Chloe told Clark that Oliver encountered an earlier prototype in the Nevada desert.

Yes, but that was one of the impersonal clones and with Bart's speed they all (except for Bart) should have been dead if the program had included killing. If you ask me Lex should have sticked to the clones instead of trying to give all those abilities to a guy who was not quite prepared for all that power, who didn't trust his wife enough to tell her about him still being alive and chosen to volunteer in that experiment, and whom Lex didn't trust enough to tell him that it was all about an alien invasion in the first place. Keenan was shockingly out of information. The idea was good - clones are only as good as their program, and at first obviously the plan was to keep Keenan's personality in charge (otherwise it makes no sense to use a decorated soldier - he could have used any guy from the street or sticked to his clones if he wouldn't have wanted the fighter's personality and mental skills). So, a real human, trained for such situations, with all these powers, could have made a difference in a combat situation with Kryptonians. But again the plan was not thougth thrue and Lex confused himself with all his secret keeping and was more than distracted by his complicated relationshp with and plans for Lana.

And then what? Kara was as human as Clark was in Mortal. He would have gotten nowhere with her. Getting her trust almost got him what he wanted (see Hero).

What should have prevented him to use the memory recollector from Summerholt institute after kidnapping her?

I call him Parker Lewis because I can't remember either.

What's your point in regard to my argument? Did Clark assault Pete to be pretend-friends with Whitney?

If I understood you correctly you said that one should not ally with the bullies in school because they are evil by definition. Correct me if I misunderstood you.

The assault on Duncan is a second topic.

Huh. Suddenly doing the right thing is revenge? In the case of the Zero girl you just argued that Parker Lewis was the one starting the mess because he was unfaithful and Lex exposing him was just a service to his girlfriend. Now that Lex is not the whistleblower it's not a good thing anymore?

The question is: what does one want? In Zero Lex exposed the fiancee of his friend to show her what kind of guy she was going to marry - and yes, he likely also hoped that she might turn to him. Was it the right or good thing? Not to "Parker Lewis" obviously. For her? Who knows. Maybe she would have been happy with a husband like that. Her initial reaction to the revelation suggests otherwise but we will never know.

In the case of Duncan, Duncan didn't want to do "the right thing". What is "the right thing"? There are laws and reasons for laws but exposing Ollie would only have hurt him and his friends and served no other purpose. Duncan and Lex would still have been outcasts at school - maybe even more so because Ollie's gang were not the only ones to bully the two and turning somebody in to the teachers does not gain one respect of schoolmates. So what was the motive for Duncan to hurt them? Because it was the right thing to hurt them?

Duncan could have chosen to accept Lex's plan and in addition to now being protected by Ollie's gang instead of being bullied lead a good life at school. Nobody would have been hurt. But he chose to hurt Ollie and his friends and I can't see any motive but him wanting revenge for how they acted to him. Revenge obviously was still in his system even after years of coma because that was what he wanted the moment he was given the chance to communicate with his surroundings.

Look, students try to cheat all the time. I don't know how many fellow students I have allowd to copy from me. Some do it to get better notes, others just for the fun of it - cheating authorities. That is teenagers for you. What Ollie and his gang did was "illegal" but hardly a serious crime. Pestering Lex and Duncan was way more evil than stealing term papers if you ask me. And the fact that Duncan was portrayed to still be in revenge mode after years of coma showed that that was his real motive to expose Ollie, IMO.

I hate Traveler arc. It's a shoe-horned retcon that makes no sense given Lionel's behaviour in the earlier seasons.

For me it answered many questions, especially regarding Lionel.

And what makes this any different from the lab dropping on him?

Pushing himself away from the Porsche before it hit him would have kept him save. But he could not have pushed the whole lab away as it broke.

If Lex knew there could be no way he'd be surprised by this.

Didn't Lex witness Clark being vulnerable in "Leech", season one? He still could possess other abilities, just not bullet proove. It probably kept Lex awake at night trying to guess what exact meteor power Clark had.

Yes and now they have Lionel as an ally. My point exactly. Chlark and a powerful backer is a dangerous combination, even to a Luthor.

Yes, but does that not proove that Clark was special? And what should have kept Lex from using all his resources in season six to find out in what way Clark was special? Clark used his superpowers all the time on the farm. One invisible clone with a cameral would have done the trick. And he always talked with Chloe about everything secret in the DP, too. There were several incidents of meteor freaks finding out his secret this way.

Lex can do no evil, but Clark is the Dark Lord. Yup, that's Smallville's message alright.

That is not what I mean. And you know that. I just don't see them as one all good and the other all evil. And I fully understand why Clark lies so much.

He supsected it. He did not know it.

He must have been fairly sure to confront Ollie like that. It was not that hard to deduce. Everybody knew that Queen Industries had the only working satelites during Dark Thursday. Lex had been flying around (Lionel had seen Zod starting from the Luthorcorp building) and Ollie was just back in Metropolis and then Lex was kidnapped right out of Luthorcorp.

Lex specifically asked Bart about his employer!

Not very convincingly if you ask me. He was even better questioning AC, though not that much. Those guys Ollie hired I would give more credit and don't forget the Chineese and Genevieve. If Lex's priority had been to question Bart he would have done so. It is not as if he had not some good examples of how it was done.

According to the map, Lex has dozens of facilities in Metropolis alone. He needed him close to interogate him. Shipping him off he could always do later.

The terrorists had compromised six facilities and obviously knew how to steal top-secret Luthorcorp information. Don't you think Lionel had a point reminding Lex of priorities? But Lex was just all nonchalant and amused. If he had taken it serious he would have taken care to not loose Bart again before he had not told him the identity of the other terrorists. Whatever the cost or inconvenience.

Nope, not her computer. She had dozens of printouts of internal LuthorCorp documents (I doubt you'll find shipping documents and order forms of any company online).

Any more doubts why Lionel was sure that Lex was not properly covering his tracks? How did Chloe get those printouts? She couldn't use Bart and Clark was busy with milking cows and tracking phantoms. Did she enter Luthorcorp or the Mansion secretly without any superpowers to get information from a non-linked computer like Bart did?

I thought she simply hacked into Luthorcorp intranet (as we see her doing in season seven) using the DP computers (both illegal btw, the hacking as well as the use of the DP computers for it). And printed because it was easier to look for patterns on paper. If I recall correctly she just reasoned that Bart was where the high speed detectors had been send. But if I was Lex and knew that there was a leak I would have lead lot's of false tracks like that and kept my true intentions off the books - and the computers.

Look, we have a character that since season one was portrayed as intelligent and a master schemer successfully outwiting all of his adversaries, from Victoria Hardwick over journalists who want to blackmail him to even Lionel Luthor himself. And then, suddenly, in season six he becomes all stupid and unable to see what is right in front of him?

My problem with the show (from a real-world perspective) is that Lex got a lot of heat when he didn't do any evil yet. Especially from Jonathan and Lex (like when Lex helped Ryan and Clark immediately accused him of trying to exploit Ryan).

That is his fate. He is a Luthor and thus he must be eeeevil.

He still is accused of being evil by Clark even though he solved the meteor infection problem. We don't see them any more, right? The second meteor shower brought more than ten times as much meteor rock as the first and stil we see less meteor freaks killing indiscriminately. It should be more. But we are not given any other way to solve them but the B-story in several epiodes, namely 33.1.

But from season 5 on (and let's face it, with TV series we mostly have to think in seasons) he started doing more and more morally grey, cruel and evil things.

He had that alien invasion to consider. His paranoia was not without cause.

Like when he tried to threaten to get Milton Fine fired because he was looking into LuthorCorp's more shadier businesses.

Like projects to save mankind from alien invasions and insane meteor freaks because the government was not interested in it all?

By that time he didn't know anything about Fine and just saw him as a threat to his company's illegal activities (and yes they were illegal because Fine counter-blackmailed him with it in Thirst).

Fine played the game all too well to be just a professor of history. Lex knew that after his first dialouge with Fine. In Thirst Fine even played pool better than any human, and Lex observed that. Brainiac had his Plan B "Lex as vessel" right from the beginning and tested Lex again and again.

And Brainiac exactly predicted Lex's response to him.

Yes, it was a great story. Brainac acted and planned very intelligently. Loved it. It is what I expect from an intelligent adversary. So obviously they can do this on Smallville. Why did they portray Lex as stupid in the later seasons? Makes no sense to me. The theory that he knew Clark's secret and still protected him for various reasons (among them that Clark was indeed saving humans) makes much more sense to me.

Complex? Yes. Still doesn't make him a good guy.

Depends on your definition of "good" of course. As the usual comic definition is: heroes don't kill (at least not without moping for a season afterwards) but villains do, Lex is clearly a villain. Whether heroes are good and villains evil is another question.

That was already heavily omplied by Jinx when Lex did not answer Clark why he got jason fired in the first place. And you could see it in his eyes that he was not the reason he gave Lana one episode later (Spell) and certainly not the reason he gave Genevieve Teague in Pariah where he claimed that he would not interfer in affairs of the heart (disproved by at least Cool, Craving and Zero).

At that time Lex already knew about the stones of power and he was searching the globe for them since the first episode of season four. He had read all of Lionel's information about them. He also knew that Genevieve Teaque was searching for them for years, too, just like Lionel. He knew that she was a descendent of Gertrude and that Lana was a descendent of Isobel who had sworn an oath to kill Gertrude's descendents.

If you had all that information and suddenly Jason Teague appears with Lana in Smallville as her boyfriend - what would you have thought? That he had met her by coincidence in Paris and really was in love with her, following her against the wish of his parents to live in Smallville as a football coach of her Highschool after marrying her ? Well, it is Lana so I guess it is possible but I would still have been cautious and distrustfull of Jason under the circumstances.

Lex already knew who and what Genevieve was - he lied to her all the time. As to Lana, he only was not willing to separate her from his friend Clark for his own agenda, Jason didn't have this protection, he was not Lex's friend.

[DJ Doena]

Don't get me wrong, I loved arguing with you. But I will end it here. I think we both made our points and we won't convince the other anyway.

One problem is that you are hard to catch. For example: We argued about if Wes was the first test soldier. You claimed he was. When I pointed out Senator Burke's statement, you didn't concede, you just took my argument as if were the first and started a completely new and different discussion:

I doubt Wes was the first test soldier.

I don't see anything that confirms your opinion. And a lot that speaks against it.

That lot being? Senator Burke himself stated that the project had left the testing phase and was about to get into mass production.

And he was right, was he not? Lex already had his meteor powered clone army and now wanted a multiple powers soldier to be able to beat Kryptonians.

The last statement has nothing to with the question if Wes was or wasn't the first test soldier. It's a red herring thrown my way.

[Freawaru]

Hey all; very interesting debates here. The fact that we're even having this discussion about Lex Luthor--one of the foremost symbols of evil pop literature--clearly says volumes about Michael Rosenbaum's layered performance and the complex writing of the writers on this show.

I agree completely.

That being said, however, I do believe the show made it very clear that Lex Luthor is by no means a "good guy" anymore,

Considering everything that happened in season one and before I don't think he was a good guy even then. But I suppose it depends on your definition of good.
I mean he was ready to give his life for others but he also used various Luthor tactics on his adversaries (blackmail, threat, drugs, etc) and he killed somebody in the first episode of season two.

as that would defeat the whole purpose of his tragic character arc. While Clark's journey was about learning lessons of compassion from his parents and overcoming his issues so that he could become the ultimate hero and symbol of light, Lex's arc was the complete opposite: learning lessons about ruthlessness from his father, absorbing and embracing his issues to become the ultimate "bearer of darkness".

Yes. That was the Traveler arc. Clark becoming the Saviour part of The Traveler and Lex becoming the Destroyer. All we need now is a "Creator" in SV and we have the famous Hindu trinity Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva.

Lex started out as one of the good guys, in fact a genuine hero in the early seasons, if you ask me. But he slowly turned into a man who was willing to experiment on human beings, invoke psychological torture on his wife, murder his flesh and blood, and destroy just about anyone who got in his way.

I think he was still quite controlled in all that. He never even tried to destroy Lois even though she was getting under his skin all the time. I mean, an accident here or there, shouldn't have been a big deal for someone without a conscience.

What Freawaru is saying about not condemning someone is definitely a good point for us to be conscience of, especially in our daily lives, but I also think that it can be dangerous for us if we try *too* hard to make excuses for clearly bad behavior.

You are probably right but I guess that is why I like Clark so much. He does not give up easily.

We need to find that fine balance, and I think that's what's so brilliant about how the series portrayed Lex: it found that balance. The series ended on that deliciously ambiguous note for Lex: while he may be "evil" by most standards, he is still trying to save the world in the end.

I am not sure how evil he would have been considered in other cultures. The Cardassians probably would have appreciated him. And the Nietzscheans would have declared him perfect. Good and evil are not absolutes, but in the eye of the beholder.

Aaand on that note, off to bed so I can dress up as Lex in the early morning for San Diego Comic Con! Haha. Hope to see some of you there.

Cool

Have a lot of fun and keep us updated.

----- Added 17 Minutes later -----

Don't get me wrong, I loved arguing with you. But I will end it here. I think we both made our points and we won't convince the other anyway.

One problem is that you are hard to catch. For example: We argued about if Wes was the first test soldier. You claimed he was. When I pointed out Senator Burke's statement, you didn't concede, you just took my argument as if were the first and started a completely new and different discussion:

The last statement has nothing to with the question if Wes was or wasn't the first test soldier. It's a red herring thrown my way.

I am sorry. I did not intent it to be that way. I just misunderstood you. Senator Burke didn't refer to other humans being used as test object for multiple powered soldiers before Keenan. He referred to Lex having completed the tests on Keenan and that Keenan was fully operational. And that Lex now was in the situation to provide other humans with these powers. His statement had nothing to do with other humans being test objects before Keenan. I mean, it would not makes sense. Burke was the one who had convinced the military to join Luthorcorp for this project - he would have known if Lex had had other volunteers from the army.

As to "that lot being" I think I wrote many reasons to answer that question. Such as it not making sense to use humans if you have clones you can fully program with a chip, not making sense to use a highly decorated soldier if you want to turn him into a programmed drone anyway, not making sense that the scientist didn't know the problem that arose from Keenan's own personality, and others.

[Freawaru]

I would like to add something to this quote of yours - just so you won't think I was red herring you

That lot being? Senator Burke himself stated that the project had left the testing phase and was about to get into mass production.

I think that at the beginning "mass production" even might have meant to give those powers to other humans, probably even soldiers, for the tactical reasons I stated. But after the disaster with Keenan, Lex talks about his "army" and we see him looking into a room full of human bodies. We see the same room full of human bodies when it was explained that the Lana who died in the car explosion was a clone. Thus I think it is reasonable to assume that that room full of human bodies were not real humans but clones. This is why I think that first multi-powered prototype was a clone, too. Even as Lex originally had planned to give those powers to real humans like Keenan, he found out that it was too dangerous. He couldn't control Keenan if necessary as the chip had not worked. He could have tried to make the chip work on humans but that would mean he would have to experiment on real humans! And obviously he didn't go that route. Why should he not do it if he had been experimenting on real persons the whole time, anyway?

In Prototype we also see Lex ordering new soldiers for another test run for Keenan. But we never see the army complaining about him killing their soldiers for his experiments. This is why I feel sure that those "soldiers" Lex ordered for another test run were part of his clone army. In Prototype the micro chip already worked without malfunctions on the clones, those with and those without meteor powers. And it didn't look as if this was a new thing for everybody. The clone army must have been around for some months at least.

[super_j_man]

Mortal was a great episode that showed Clark having to save the day without his powers. And he was awesome at it! I thought the Bell Reev escapes made good villains and the plot was well done. Everything was there for a great episode and I wasn't disappointed. Oh and I actually liked Clana this episode, one of my favorite Clana episodes actually. Both feel they can finally be there for each other and there is nothing getting in their way. Even though isn't destined to last, I'm glad they got to spend some good time together.

10/10

[jon-el87]

Can't recall the last time I rewatched this episode (not counting with the rewatch here on Ksite). Clark lost his powers, at the end of the last episode and he regains them in the episode after this. So, it's nice that they have an entire episode, where Clark is powerless. Without this episode, Clark would've lost his powers, at the end of the season premiere and then regained them in the next. So, this episode helps to create the feeling that Clark was without his powers for a prolonged period. I also appreciate that they're shown to still be rebuilding the Kent farm and the rest of the town. The town just got hit by a massive meteor shower. Something that would take time to recover from. Even if the Kent farm was fully restored by next episode (but, that's just one house. They never showed that the rest of the town was rebuilt by next episode. So, actual full restoration could've taken several more months, if not a few years).

Liked the bit with Clark suggesting that Chloe could do all of these things with her computer and Chloe replied that, to do what he's suggesting, would take hours to set up. TV shows and movies have an annoying tendency to exagerate hacking and making everything possible with a computer (usually it just takes a few taps at the keyboard). So, it's nice to see someone acknowledge limitations to hacking and that it would take hours, rather than just doing what Clark suggested (and then some). With this episode, Chloe officially became Clark's side kick. A role she would run with, until her semi-departure after S9.