How successful have they been for Bruce becoming Batman or why Gotham needs him?

[Haggard01]

Like really, how successful have they been on selling why Gotham City needs Batman for this universe? It's questionable.

Now I will say regarding the show for Bruce leaving Gotham City to go train during the ten-year time skip, and there was a behind the scenes photo of a private plane so I'd say it's a safe bet, should be more of an option instead of a requirement.

Really Gotham could have given us or rather done it better since they seemed to be going with Bruce's origin for either pre 1986 Crisis or Earth 1 graphic novels where Bruce became Batman while never leaving Gotham City. Only the writers spent all of five seasons just dragging Bruce around in certain side plots that did absolutely nothing at times.

The whole "If they had more seasons" reason just does not fly, since if they couldn't do it by 5, they certainly would not have in more seasons given they would have wasted even more time. Like David Mazouz who plays Bruce Wayne does a wonderful job, but I wish the writing was better.

For example, having Bruce be the one who engages with Ed Nygma in the season 2 finale instead of just standing there silently while Lucius Fox answers Nygma's riddles. Have Bruce learning detective skills from Gordon or Lucius Fox on examining crime scenes, and such would have been another thing to do in one of the seasons. You know to explain why Bruce is considered the world's greatest detective.

For the end of 3x22, they were on the right track with Bruce suiting up as a vigilante for the first time on being how to help Gotham City. Only to quickly undo it come season 4 and well it's questionable how much they put him back on that track.

As much as Smallville got wrong one thing they did right was in the later seasons was have Clark as The Blur a sort of proto Superman running around. That should have been what Gotham did for Bruce.

The main problem with this whole thing is Jim Gordon is successful, a little to since he is flat out Jim "Batman" Gordon if Bruce joined the GCPD type of thing. So Jim with the GCPD is able to handle and stop Batman level plots as of season 5 there is no need for Batman when Gordon is around. Sure No Man's Land, and the tech virus getting released are the two obvious not happenings but even Batman can be to late at times.

Like if they went the route of Bruce not becoming Batman and choosing to just help people as Bruce Wayne through Wayne Enterprises or such. That would be more natural to the story Gotham is telling it feels like at times.

Now I'd say the show will no doubt use is Jim getting a daughter so he backs it down from all his Batman action stuff and getting older, to possibly explain why Gordon is not as Batman active.

For whatever in the finale episodes will push Bruce into full on Gotham needing Batman I have the feeling will feel more forced then a natural story progression.

These are my thoughts and some of the rather obvious short comings for Gotham, despite my liking of the show.

What about you guys?

[costas22]

I would definitely agree that propping up Jim has somewhat hurt the importance of Bruce. And yes, Jim is still in his late 30s/early 40s and Bruce is still just 18, but I think they have established Jim Gordon in such deep rooted manner that it's hard to imagine him changing a lot. This Jim Gordon can handle his own most of the time, has already dealt with the threats of villains like Penguin, Nygma, Scarecrow and the Joker in some way and doesn't look like giving up on the city anytime soon.

Now, I haven't read many comic books, but the idea of Jim Gordon that I have from various movies and tv shows is that he was a disillusioned cop who was overwhelmed by the crime festering in his city. He needed the Batman to give him hope and help him fight the bad guys. This show's Jim Gordon doesn't seem to me that he will end up like that in the future (even Lee told him last week that he will never change). And if they do a time jump and present future Jim Gordon in that manner, it may not work, IMO.

Keep in mind, I have had some issues with Bruce's characterization as well. For me, they should have focused more on how his character as a detective and a crime fighter was shaped, not how his fighting skills developed. They had Bruce get way more physical than he should have as a teenager. To the point where now he already seems like the complete article.

That said, this particular version of Bruce might have felt more special if the show also took the time to "deconstruct" Jim Gordon and make him look like a broken man. And I thought that's what they were starting to do with the Sofia storyline, but it didn't last.

[Aurora Moon]

I agree. It seems to be a show mainly about Jim Gordon than it is about Bruce Wayne, Batman or even Gotham itself. So as a result, Jim Gordon ends up being the single most important character on the TV show in which all the other characters' stories revolve around.


Which wouldn't be so bad, I guess.... if he wasn't the type of character who mainly reacts to things after they happen, instead of being a mainly proactive character who drives the story along. Some episodes also didn't do him a favor in making him seem like a total dumbass who didn't know how to react to things rationally.

I like the idea of Bruce becoming an Earth-1 batman type though.

[Haggard01]

I would definitely agree that propping up Jim has somewhat hurt the importance of Bruce. And yes, Jim is still in his late 30s/early 40s and Bruce is still just 18, but I think they have established Jim Gordon in such deep rooted manner that it's hard to imagine him changing a lot. This Jim Gordon can handle his own most of the time, has already dealt with the threats of villains like Penguin, Nygma, Scarecrow and the Joker in some way and doesn't look like giving up on the city anytime soon.

Now, I haven't read many comic books, but the idea of Jim Gordon that I have from various movies and tv shows is that he was a disillusioned cop who was overwhelmed by the crime festering in his city. He needed the Batman to give him hope and help him fight the bad guys. This show's Jim Gordon doesn't seem to me that he will end up like that in the future (even Lee told him last week that he will never change). And if they do a time jump and present future Jim Gordon in that manner, it may not work, IMO.

Yes you are correct for the idea Jim Gordon in like every other media needs Batman to give him hope and help fight the bad guys, when he's overwhelmed. Yep on this show's Gotham does not seem like he will be that version and if they do it, only in the finale episode for future Jim it might not work.

Keep in mind, I have had some issues with Bruce's characterization as well. For me, they should have focused more on how his character as a detective and a crime fighter was shaped, not how his fighting skills developed. They had Bruce get way more physical than he should have as a teenager. To the point where now he already seems like the complete article.

That said, this particular version of Bruce might have felt more special if the show also took the time to "deconstruct" Jim Gordon and make him look like a broken man. And I thought that's what they were starting to do with the Sofia storyline, but it didn't last.

I actually like seeing an active Bruce and such, however like you pointed out is they also didn't focus on his other aspects such as his detective skills.

Frankly Gotham should have been we see Bruce from watching his parents get shot to putting in the cowl with no ten year happened off screen time jump. Like how Arrow had Oliver's origin from boat going down to the opening moments of 1x01 for how Oliver became The Hood, despite the rough journey parts writing wise in getting there.

That's should have been what Gotham did.

Yeah good point on how to make Bruce feel more special is if they gave us a broken down Jim Gordon. Frankly that's what I thought season 4 was going to be is Bruce stepping up as a growing vigilante while Jim becomes broken.

There was a moment in one of the later episodes in season 4, I can't remember the exact one, where Jim is talking to Harvey and he says "There are no heroes in Gotham." Like finally Gordon is broken down to needing Batman, no longer sees himself as the white knight hero and such.

Only shortly thereafter and very obvious in season 5 is Gordon is right back into that role of Gotham's heroes. Season 5 had moments of where they tried to present him as broken but it didn't really come off that way.

[Haggard01]

You know Gotham is going have Bruce taking his time to fight for Gotham thing 3 times in this series.

Once in 3x22 where Bruce was on the right track at the end, then spent season 4 eventually getting back onto that track with telling Alfred, he is making Gotham his responsibility to become The Dark Knight and then again in 5x11 from the trailer Bruce says "It's time for me to protect Gotham."

Now yes we have not seen the context in what the line is used for 5x11, but it's not that hard of a guess.

Like this reminds me of Smallville where Clark would go two steps forward then one step back on towards becoming Superman. Same with Bruce in Gotham.

It's like makes me kind of glad Gotham didn't get it's full seven planned seasons cause they would have dragged the back and fourth part for Bruce out even longer. Which yeah Bruce didn't do the whole I'm going to save Gotham until adult hood in Batman Begins but really Gotham perhaps could have benefited a little bit more from Bruce's comic book and other medium selves where he makes that commit to protect Gotham as a child against criminals then sticks to it.

At least for the sake of not having any flip flopping.

[ducklife]

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