Gotham #5.4 "Ruin"

[Haggard01]

Talk about the January 24 episode of Gotham here!

On one hour and a little under a half to go before the start of 5x04.

[Haggard01]

only about twenty five minutes until the episode airs.

[Aries83]

I thought this was an ok episode, but it still felt "busy" like a lot of others.

Nygma being brought in to investigate the crime scene was a welcome change from the repetitive memory loss arc, but I didn't expect that he'd be the suspect at the end. Was anyone reminded of Batman Forever when he killed the old lady?

It was nice to see ZsasZ return to the fold. I've missed his sarcasm. The gun draw with Gordon seemed out of character (or out of place, at the least), but I did like how defiant he was that criminals would never own the city.

The plot with Selina was just ok. However, I did NOT expect her to get through to wound Jeremiah like that, but: Good for her! It's a little anticlimactic, though, because we know he survives to face off with Bruce later. Still surprising, though.

The most interesting moment in the episode, for me, was when Barbara asked Jim if he thought she could kill all those people. The way he answered and the body language they used during that scene said so much.

I'm really hoping Barbara knows not to take what happens with Gordon too seriously from this point on. We don't need that type of melodrama anymore!

Anyway, a good episode. Can't wait for next week. What did everybody else think?

[costas22]

Hm, lots to talk about. As a whole, I enjoyed this episode more than last weeks. Aside from a couple of scenes, the plot was always moving and it featured a couple of interesting developments at the end. In terms of advancing the storylines, I felt it did a very good job.

- Obviously the main arc was the Haven bombing aftermath, which brought a lot of characters together. The main problem I had with it was this constant dynamic shift between Jim and Oswald. Yes, I get that the show wants to establish a love-hate relationship between the two of them, but it's also getting tiresome. And we've reached the point where you wonder why Jim even bothers anymore. He knows Penguin will double cross him. Now they are on opposing sides (again) but we know that in a couple of episodes they will work together (again) against the military. It's just an endless vicious cycle. The main positive out of all that was the return of Szasz. His dry humor always cracks me up.

- Harvey was right. The shoot-out idea was dumb, pointless and flat out cheesy. I was glad to see him tell off Jim in a pissed off manner.

- As part of the Haven storyline, Nygma's arc began to unravel and it took a most interesting turn. I never expected him to be the bomber and it looks like Dr Strange did a number on him! The good news in all this is that it debunked the fan theory of Lee's consciousness living inside Ed's somehow. Because Lee would never do something like, regardless of how "dark" they made her out to be last year. I'd love to know what Strange did with Nygma. It's not even a case of evil Ed coming out while good Ed is sleeping, because we've come to find out that evil Ed is the one who's awake during the day.

- For what it's worth, I enjoyed the Nygma-Lucius interactions a lot. It was nice to see Ed less cartoonish and back in his original element.

- Yes Aries, I also had Batman Forever flashbacks when Ed offed the poor old lady.

- Selina's arc was ok. I wasn't a big fan of the stabbing either. Because it felt like another bait and switch. We already know Jeremiah doesn't die. Plus, how many Jerome and Jeremiah deaths are they going to tease? My favorite part was Bruce taking out Jeremiah's goons in the dark. So Batman-esque.

- Ecco was Harley-licious again.

- As for the closing scene, eh, it is what it is. As a concept, I am not opposed to the Barbara-Jim pairing. I never was, even during season 1 when most people found Barbara a very boring and problematic character. I always prefered him with Barbara than Lee. And at this very point, IMO they are good for each other. Barbara will help him feel less lonely while he will help her recapture some of her good nature and shake off her recent misandry.

My problem stems from this potentially turning into a love triangle when Lee returns down the road. If you read the description for episode 5.06, you will probably guess that they will be a long term couple. And after a while Lee conveniently returns. We really could do without any romantic melodrama during the final stretch of the show...

[Aries83]

The main problem I had with it was this constant dynamic shift between Jim and Oswald. Yes, I get that the show wants to establish a love-hate relationship between the two of them, but it's also getting tiresome.

I agree. Plus, I'm kind of tired of Penguin coming off so cartoonish.

The main positive out of all that was the return of Szasz. His dry humor always cracks me up.

Agreed. Humor is a good thing at this point, especially with the state the city is in.

Nygma's arc began to unravel and it took a most interesting turn. I never expected him to be the bomber and it looks like Dr Strange did a number on him! The good news in all this is that it debunked the fan theory of Lee's consciousness living inside Ed's somehow.

Thank God that didn't come to pass! It would've been a big disservice to both characters, honestly—even though I haven't liked 99.9% of the stuff they've done with Leslie...

I also had Batman Forever flashbacks when Ed offed the poor old lady.

All that was missing was one of those helmets...

I wasn't a big fan of the stabbing either. Because it felt like another bait and switch. We already know Jeremiah doesn't die. Plus, how many Jerome and Jeremiah deaths are they going to tease?

I agree. On the plus side, maybe it will satisfy Selina enough to settle down for a minute.

Ecco was Harley-licious again.

Did you notice how Jeremiah "stiffened" up when she entered the room? I thought that was interesting. It seems like he is treating her like his equal, which is nice given the history of her character.

As for the closing scene, eh, it is what it is. . . . they are good for each other. Barbara will help him feel less lonely while he will help her recapture some of her good nature and shake off her recent misandry.

I totally agree.

My problem stems from this potentially turning into a love triangle when Lee returns down the road. If you read the description for episode 5.06, you will probably guess that they will be a long term couple. And after a while Lee conveniently returns. We really could do without any romantic melodrama during the final stretch of the show...

I know. Here comes Lee to stink it all up!... I'd be perfectly fine with all three of them co-existing as long as they avoid cattiness between Lee and Barbara.

My guess is that Lee drops in to help with the wounded survivors. At least, that's what I'm hoping. She IS supposed to be a doctor...

[costas22]

Thank God that didn't come to pass! It would've been a big disservice to both characters, honestly—even though I haven't liked 99.9% of the stuff they've done with Leslie...

Yeah, plus dumb all around. Not sure I wanted to see Cory Michael Smith act in a scene like Morena Baccarin would have. Lets hope we dodged that bullet for good!

It also begs the question what Strange did with Lee and why it's taking her so long to resurface.

All that was missing was one of those helmets...

Yeah, lets try to remember just the good stuff from that movie. Like Nicole Kidman.

I agree. On the plus side, maybe it will satisfy Selina enough to settle down for a minute.

One would think, but it will be interesting to see how Ivy's seed works. Maybe "killing" Jeremiah will prompt Selina to be even darker going forward.

Did you notice how Jeremiah "stiffened" up when she entered the room? I thought that was interesting. It seems like he is treating her like his equal, which is nice given the history of her character.

Definitely for the best. Their dynamic should be different to the traditional Joker-Harley relationship. The scheming-while-dancing routine was also fun, I must say.

I know. Here comes Lee to stink it all up!... I'd be perfectly fine with all three of them co-existing as long as they avoid cattiness between Lee and Barbara.

My guess is that Lee drops in to help with the wounded survivors. At least, that's what I'm hoping. She IS supposed to be a doctor...

That's how I feel every time she returns. Hopefully I'm just paranoid. I am always very worried about love triangles on shows like this, but that has more to do with my Smallville and Arrowverse experiences. Gotham itself doesn't resort to them that often.

[Haggard01]

Yeah, plus dumb all around. Not sure I wanted to see Cory Michael Smith act in a scene like Morena Baccarin would have. Lets hope we dodged that bullet for good!

It also begs the question what Strange did with Lee and why it's taking her so long to resurface.

Yeah me neither and let's hope so as well for dodging that bullet.

Good question.

Yeah, lets try to remember just the good stuff from that movie. Like Nicole Kidman.

Yep Nicole Kidman was one of the good parts in a few different ways to.

Definitely for the best. Their dynamic should be different to the traditional Joker-Harley relationship. The scheming-while-dancing routine was also fun, I must say.

Yep. Yeah it's nice to see Joker-Harely in a relationship that's not the typical Joker being abusive to her. Yep for the scheming/dancing routine was fun bit to.

That's how I feel every time she returns. Hopefully I'm just paranoid. I am always very worried about love triangles on shows like this, but that has more to do with my Smallville and Arrowverse experiences. Gotham itself doesn't resort to them that often.

Yeah same here for hopefully no Lee/Gordon/Barbara triangle and I can under that paranoia given I suffer from the same love triangle Smallville/Arrowverse PTSD that has left me scared for life.

Thankfully Gotham does not resort to them to often which has been a relief. Not so much when they do use them, however.

[Aries83]

Not sure I wanted to see Cory Michael Smith act in a scene like Morena Baccarin would have.

Maybe as a deleted scene...

It also begs the question what Strange did with Lee and why it's taking her so long to resurface.

Or if he really did anything to her (or Nygma) at all.

That's how I feel every time she returns.

Same here! As a character, she was SO much better before she got with Gordon (when she worked as the M.E. and did her doctor thing).

[Haggard01]

Or if he really did anything to her (or Nygma) at all.

Well there is a picture of Strange holding these weird things above Ed's head while he sits in a chair for 5x05, so they will meet in the upcoming episode. Now that would be a twist if Ed thought Strange did something to him only for the reveal of he did nothing at all to effect them mental wise.

Also there's some speculation that Strange is involved with certain other forces who are currently working outside of Gotham at the moment. Like Theresa Walker who is apparently involved with Bane's military group or something along those lines.

Same here! As a character, she was SO much better before she got with Gordon (when she worked as the M.E. and did her doctor thing).

Yeah I agree. Well more of even when Lee was dating Gordon it wasn't bad at first but when they started writing drama crap into it, and all that is when the character along with the relationship went south, IMO.

And the season 4 when they removed her from being anything close to a doctor was the lowest of the low points.

[costas22]

Yep Nicole Kidman was one of the good parts in a few different ways to.

The main reason I watch that movie at least once a year.

Yeah same here for hopefully no Lee/Gordon/Barbara triangle and I can under that paranoia given I suffer from the same love triangle Smallville/Arrowverse PTSD that has left me scared for life.

Thankfully Gotham does not resort to them to often which has been a relief. Not so much when they do use them, however.

Anyone who has lived through the Chloe/Clark/Lana and especially the Clark/Lana/Lex love triangle is never the same afterwards!

I was trying to remember how many love triangles Gotham has done. The most memorable one was probably Jim interfering while Lee and was involved with Falcone junior. And even that one wasn't a traditional love triangle because Jim wasn't in love with Lee at the time. I also remember Barbara stalking Jim and Lee in season 2(?), but Jim wasn't into her at the time.

So they haven't done a traditional love triangle until now and hopefully that continues. The worst thing they can do, if Barbara and Jim are back together, is for Jim to suddenly fall for Lee when she returns.

Or if he really did anything to her (or Nygma) at all.

He must have, simply because of how that cliffhanger was shot. When she returns, Lee also seems kind of perplexed as to what happened to her.

Same here! As a character, she was SO much better before she got with Gordon (when she worked as the M.E. and did her doctor thing).

And even at the start of their relationship, she was still pretty likeable. I just feel the whole thing went off the rails when she got pregnant, lost the baby and returned as Falcone's fiance, etc.