Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Brothers in Arms?"

[KSiteTV]

No one posted in the live thread again I see

Anyway, those who have seen the episode, what did you think?

[JDBentz]

I thought the episode was fairly good. Better then I expected, at any rate. However, some things to note:

Diggle brought up three issues before the main explosion: spying on the team, not rescuing vigilante, and the Laurel-money situation. Spying on the team, he did caution about that but in the end decided to agree to it. On the Vigilante front: if he puts rescuing a self-healing man who appears to have SpecForces training over getting the bomb that Cayden was threatening the city with, then he's not team leader material in the first place. A team leader has to make the choice that will save the most lives. If they had all gone to get the bomb, they would've gotten it, IMO. Instead, Dinah dragged half the team on a mission to save a man capable of handling himself. Now, yeah, if they had all gone to save Vigilante, they could've but they would've lost the bomb and at that time they didn't know they would find a way to stop Cayden from continuing his plan. So the choice was save one man or save thousands. Finally, the whole Black Siren and the money issue. The only other option would've been torture, which Dig has already proven squeamish over, while the 'other' team had one squeamish guy, a rat, and a woman hell-bent on killing their only lead to the money. That was a CF of a situation no matter what, and all of them had egg on their face with that.

People think Oliver's comment about Andy was low, well, so was Dig's comment about Samantha, and Oliver has always been someone who lets his emotions guide him along with his gut. So, in my opinion, that was a well-deserved response for Dig's. Dig wants to go there, he better be prepared for the blowback.

I think them 'settling things' so quickly, and because Felicity used her 'loud voice', was stupid. After that brawl they go back to going into the field together? Nuh-uh. That don't work.

The Black Siren and Dragon scenes were interesting... the Dragon-Siren kiss was a surprise but I wonder how much of this is Siren just wanting someone to like her for her and not because she's Laurel. She clearly doesn't like being compared to her despite 'assuming' her identity.

Felicity's 'I'll always be here' comment was hilarious because next week she's saying they need to 'take some space'. Now, true, that could be a Vertigo induced thing, or could even have been cut to deceive, but we'll see. As it is, from the sounds of it, one way or the other she and Oliver will be taking a break from Episode 18 on for a bit. Episode 19's description implies that Oliver makes a decision in Episode 18 that results in Felicity having enough time to devote to Helix Dynamics.

All in all, while I didn't enjoy the way Diggle suddenly did a 180, I have to say this kind of confrontation should've happened between him and Oliver ages ago... oh, wait, it did... they were like this when it came to Oliver infiltrating the League. Just less-pronounced and Felicity used her 'loud voice' then to settle things. Maybe if she hadn't they would have had to confront this kind of crap earlier.

Oh, surprise, surprise that the thing with Curtis' boyfriend was resolved so quickly.

I would give this one a five. It was good, but it wasn't great or superb, and there were enough side story elements to take away from the Dig-Oliver confrontation that it didn't end up being nearly as bad as I thought it would.

[jon-el87]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/thursday-final-ratings-april-5-2018/

Final ratings: 0.87 million 0.3/1

[President_Luthor]

This was a pretty good Diggle-centric episode. The subplot with Curtis and his bf du jour was forgettable, but the other one with BS possibly embracing her naturally dark side makes the 'E2 Laurel total heel blindside' fan in me giddy with glee. Her being an item with Dragon was ... unexpected. But if it's all part of a Black Siren committed heel turn, then play him like a fiddle, girl.

Back to Diggle. If the Diggle - Oliver clash was a musical, it would be akin to 'The Confrontation' from Les Miserables. It was intense stuff. Diggle made some fair points, and so did Oliver. I didn't see it as one being more right or wrong. Diggle can't wash his hands of some of Oliver's bad calls, as he stood to be counted with old Team Arrow on many of those calls. And I do agree that, while being a more grounded GA might make Oliver the "best" version of himself , he is over-extending himself with the various hats he must now wear. And to get to the point where Oliver could be a more "well-rounded" person, many people over the years have had to pay a very high price -- either tangibly in treasure or in blood (Yao Fei, Shado, Tommy, Moira, Maseo, Laurel ...), or in a more personal cost: here I would count Roy, Thea and now Diggle.

His bringing up all the old issues from the civil war was mere window dressing to what appears to be Diggle's own identity crisis. It has been brewing for years, at least it should have been. Oliver and Felicity were content with Diggle being Team Arrow's yes-man: he'd back their play, support their decisions even when he disagrees or objects to them -- all that OTA!! fiddle-faddle that bored the hell outta me. Diggle was always his own man. If Team Arrow wanted a mute or cheerleading loyalist, Diggle wasn't going to sing from that songbook any more.

Thank God for Lyla. She makes Diggle and the series better, she gave some overdue context to Diggle's state of mind and even gave Diggle some renewed purpose. John Diggle, Agent of A.R.G.U.S. may be one of the ways to breathe or refresh some creative juices in his arc.

It was a "To thine own self be true" crossroads with Diggle and he did the only honourable thing -- to quit the team. It was long overdue, and while I never got the idea why Diggle felt he needed to be GA and some of his illogical arguments were easily and justly shot down by Oliver, in the big picture 'Diggle Identity' sense ... I can understand why Diggle got to this point. It might have been more profound had the civil war been better executed etc. but over the course of the series Diggle was the sober second thought and on more than one occasion he has had to swallow or bury his views/principles for the sake of team unity. Think of the toll that would take on one's conscience, as the body count rose and more compromises were made. Saving the city is a noble cause, but it is not without cost. Diggle is simply saying (I know, 2-3 years later than he should have) that he can no longer pay that price and be true to himself.

This is not to say Oliver's POV is without merit, Diggle did sign off on Oliver's playbook for years -- but I have to admit Oliver does appear to gloss over the fact that his more-balanced life after six years has come at a price extracted from others' sacrifices in mind, body or soul. I feel that he realizes it, even appreciates it, but sadly downplays this price in the name of his mission. If he still hasn't learned this lesson after Prometheus, then I can see why it's been gnawing at Diggle (in silence mostly) since Lian Yu. And probably since S3, with the Al Sahhim blindside.

The whole civil war reflects poorly on Oliver's leadership -- this is the truth I cannot reconcile for myself, no matter how rotten the newbies were made out to be. Oliver needed to be called out on some of his dick choices and behaviours, and Diggle was the only one with the cred to "go there", as it were. It sure wasn't going to be sister-wife Felicity.

Did they have to come to blows? This is The CW, of course they did haha. J/k aside, that whole scene was good ... up until Felicity had to interrupt the fisticuffs. While the actual physical fighting was juvenile, I feel some of the issues that instigated it (unfortunately clouded by the also-juvenile civil war and Diggle's bizarre claim of the GA mantle) have been percolating for some time.

I don't know why Diggle didn't make more of an issue of his own personal cost re: fatherhood vs. vigilante life -- but considering how little we see/hear from John Jr. we have to assume he makes his own lunch, drives himself to daycare, picks up the dry cleaning after school and is doing quite well, thank you lol. (If you want Junior to do your taxes too, it'll cost you a glass of milk and some cookies.)

For what it's worth, SA sees the confrontation scene as a series highlight for him and David, and I tend to agree.

[JDBentz]

According to Zap2It's adjustments in their TVByTheNumbers, Arrow comes in with 0.3/1 rating and 0.87 viewers. The show has officially dipped below 1 million viewers and I hope the CW is paying attention and lays the blame where it belongs: Marc Guggenheim and Wendy Mericle. They're the veterans calling the shots in the writers' room.

[costas22]

Don't know if there was some kind of issue with Arrow in certain states this week, but the final numbers were record lows: 0.30 demo and 868.000 viewers (first time it's dropped below 1 million viewers): https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/a...n-six-ratings/

Even for a CW show in its 6th season, these numbers are quite bad. Arrow should have held up better than this over the years (like Supernatural has).

[JDBentz]

The only pre-emption I know of was in NYC due to some event. But as I said to a friend on Twitter, unless most of NYC watches Arrow, that wouldn't be enough to drive this to such record lows. It could, maybe, account for about half the missing viewers, if that.

[costas22]

The only pre-emption I know of was in NYC due to some event. But as I said to a friend on Twitter, unless most of NYC watches Arrow, that wouldn't be enough to drive this to such record lows. It could, maybe, account for about half the missing viewers, if that.

I see, thanks. It did cross my mind that there might have been a pre-emption somewhere because the final ratings' drop compared to the overnight ratings (0.4 demo and 1.3 million - standard numbers for this season) was very noticeable. I guess there's a good chance that this episode would have recorded the lowest ratings for a non-holiday Arrow episode anyway. And the pre-emption just drove them a bit further down.

On that note, I apologize to jon-el for posting the ratings after he already did last night. I didn't see his post.

[President_Luthor]

It's unfortunate that it had poor ratings this week, as it was one of the "better" eps. in the second half where Diggle was actually interesting (with Lyla too!) and a focus of the main plot. The third act of a season seems to be when Diggle shines -- it's too bad he usually treads water for the first and second acts.

Most of the eps. during the hyped civil war arc was were meh, comparatively speaking. Now, those melodramatically heavy eps would deserve horrid ratings. Not of a fan of their collective adolescent tantrums during that time.

It looks increasingly like they are systematically dismantling(!!!) the whole OTA notion by season's end, with Diggle leaving/stepping into the background, and Felicity doing likewise. Which may come as a surprise to viewers who expected OTA to rule the roost forever. The show needs a creative infusion next season and they can't do that quite frankly, with TPTB creatively mailing it in with Diggle and Felicity re: keeping them relevant and interesting.

If Team Arrow is going to be a new incarnation in S7, then I'm all for it. Let Diggle go off on ARGUS missions, let Felicity tinker around at her start-up with Curtis. Oliver can and should hold his own by now, thanks.

As long as Diggle and Felicity aren't clogging up the roster benches with warmed-over, repetitive or stale plots, I'd be okay with either of them going on an extended sabbatical. Sometimes, ya just gotta thin the herd.

[Freawaru]

A bit too character centric for my taste. More story, less whining and moping.

Good: Oliver threatening those two corrupt police officers - for a second I could see the Hood again. I think this is one of the reasons Arrow is not what it was. At the beginning Oliver was the Hood - and lot's of fans hated it because Green Arrow is no killer. But Oliver was and they changed it because of the fans until it became really annoying IMO. Character development and redemption arcs are fine and I usually enjoy them but they really make no sense in Oliver's case when it comes to killing or not. Why does he not go Hood on the Dragon? Lot's of people would be better, his city saved. If there is some metaphysical reason (darkness, soul, etc) they should show it and make it part of the story and the world, but so far we have not seen that killing really is bad for a person's soul. Slade, Shado, Yao Fei, Nyssa - good persons with no trouble because of them killing when necessary.

As I said I like redemption arcs but if they go the no-killing route then they should focus on them as a pattern of the story. They never did. Except for Slade no big bad was ever redeemed and Slade took years in Offscreenville to get there (and is still a killer anyway). So trying to make a redemption arc for the Hood makes no sense to me.

Diggle. I guess finally I understand why he is so odd now. He simple wants to be the leader. It is not about being GA or wearing a Hood but about him being in charge. He considers himself a soldier and he thinks it is time for him to be the general now. Though it is in character I guess, it is still odd because he never really was following orders when working WITH Oliver. He told him things, disagreed when he felt like it and more than once altered Oliver's opinion and strategy. He could go on his own when he wanted. He left when he wanted it and he returned when he wanted it. Not very much like a soldier. So in the end working for ARGUS will only work out if he becomes head of ARGUS instead of his wife. There will be lot's of drama until he finds out that this is his problem.

[Freawaru]

If Team Arrow is going to be a new incarnation in S7, then I'm all for it. Let Diggle go off on ARGUS missions, let Felicity tinker around at her start-up with Curtis. Oliver can and should hold his own by now, thanks.

I agree. I also miss his flashbacks. This season I cannot see the world through his eyes as well as I did in the other seasons. Oliver being on his own, getting to know new people, I miss it.

As long as Diggle and Felicity aren't clogging up the roster benches with warmed-over, repetitive or stale plots, I'd be okay with either of them going on an extended sabbatical. Sometimes, ya just gotta thin the herd.

I like Diggle (and liked Felicity in season one and two but now I mainly like her when she is with William). But who will be part of Team Arrow in season 7? Anatoly? Slade? Nyssa? What about Mei, twin of Shado? At least we would have the actress back. Black Siren as Black Canary? New characters? Maybe Talia?

[Freawaru]

Oh, surprise, surprise that the thing with Curtis' boyfriend was resolved so quickly.

I actually liked that. No melodrama for melodrama's sake. He stated logically that while he didn't like vigilantes when the police is there to do the job, once the police failed the city, vigilantes are an option.

[JDBentz]

True enough about no melodrama. We do got enough of that.

Oh, and from the sounds of it, we might see Oliver going more Hood-like in the coming weeks. A friend on FFN pointed out that this season has been more or less reverting Star City back to its Season 1 roots with a city full of corruption from the top down, including infesting the police force, and Oliver being stripped down to being a solo act again where he'll have to do his own research on his takedowns. So maybe, just maybe, they're actually going to do that reset in Season 7. Besides (laughs) it appears Guggenheim feels they miscalculated how much people would hate the 'Civil War' storyline and how it was handled. Unsurprising, because its Guggenheim.

Still, if they renew the contracts for all of them and keep them on Arrow, I wouldn't be surprised cuz its Marc we're talking about. It really depends on if someone higher up steps on him. (Yes, I have an obsession with picturing this).

[Freawaru]

Oh, and from the sounds of it, we might see Oliver going more Hood-like in the coming weeks. A friend on FFN pointed out that this season has been more or less reverting Star City back to its Season 1 roots with a city full of corruption from the top down, including infesting the police force, and Oliver being stripped down to being a solo act again where he'll have to do his own research on his takedowns. So maybe, just maybe, they're actually going to do that reset in Season 7.

Interesting idea. But there are some important changes now - for example everybody knows or suspects that Oliver is the Arrow. That makes everybody he loves targets. The only way around that is not to reboot season one but to have Oliver join/infiltrate the bad guys - at least that I can see. While I would truly enjoy such a scenario and I also think it is very much in character considering Oliver's training in the flashbacks season one to five I am not sure how comic fans will consider it. Is there any storyline in the comics where GA infiltrates the bad guys?

Besides (laughs) it appears Guggenheim feels they miscalculated how much people would hate the 'Civil War' storyline and how it was handled. Unsurprising, because its Guggenheim.

In my case it is more how it was handled. The only person who has had any reason to go against Oliver was Rene because of his daughter and I still think by then Rene should have considered that a guy with Oliver's past and connections has ways around that FBI investigation. For example he never seemed to have considered "kidnapping" her and starting a new life with new identities somewhere with Oliver's help. The reasons of the others are stupid - as has been stated already. I mean, Dinah is an ex-agent? Are they never under suspicion by their own agencies?

As to Guggenheim - I don't understand what is going on. I do like his "Designated Survivor". So far it has none of the flaws Arrowverse has.

All in all with some exceptional episodes I liked season five of Arrow better than season six. But I will watch a season seven.

Still, if they renew the contracts for all of them and keep them on Arrow, I wouldn't be surprised cuz its Marc we're talking about. It really depends on if someone higher up steps on him. (Yes, I have an obsession with picturing this).

[JDBentz]

Uh, Designated Survivor is done by his little brother.