#4. 17 "Mandatory Brunch Meeting"

[Aries83]

This episode was just ok for me.

"Riddle Time" turned out to be a big, fat waste of time—especially with the soap opera nonsense with Lee/Nygma towards the end... At least they gave Lee a haircut, though!

The Xander Wilde plot was ok, and I was genuinely surprised by the reveal, but I get the feeling it won't last long.

Oh, and: Did anyone else notice how Gordon pronounce Jeremiah's last name at the station?

The final scene with Scarecrow's gas and all the laughing reminded me of Joker's plot from Batman.

I hope next week is better, though.

What did everybody else think?

[costas22]

I thought this was one of the best episodes of the season. As a Jerome fan, I liked the fact that the main plot was his and it carried the bulk of the episode. Plot B was meh and plot C was ok (you'll figure out which one is which!).

There was a post in the spoilers thread that revealed some upcoming developments with the show. So I was prepared for the existence of Jeremiah. What I didn't realise was that he was Jerome's twin and that Cameron would be playing him as well. It's a very interesting development, to say the least. And I am not spoiling anything here when I say that Jeremiah seems fishy. The fact that he lied about his brother threatening him so that he could be sent away proves that he has a mean streak of his own. He just seems more calculating and meticulous than Jerome. It remains to be seen where we go from here, but I like what I am seeing until now.

Did anyone else get fuzzy feelings when we saw Batman's Rogues gallery, minus Riddler, in the same room? It's been 4 years in the making and it's kind of surprising how downplayed this scene was. On the other hand, their endgame is, dare I say, repetitive? Haven't we seen other Gotham villains try to make the city crazy? How is Jerome's plan different to Tetch or Crane's?

Any episode with Jim and Harvey doing detective work together is doing at least one thing right. I like Harper, but it's not the same with her and Jim.

Likewise, I wasn't too impressed with Riddle Time. And of course Lee outsmarted him, cementing how brilliant she is, again. The romance stuff I am not fond of, but it has 2 positives: (a) It keeps Lee away from Jim and (b) It removes the halo away from Lee's head for good. I mean, she knows she's getting close to a criminal and she even suggested robbing banks to him. So clearly she's up to no good. I just wonder if the writers know what they want to do with her? The Narrows storyline felt like a redemption storyline and then she killed Sofia in cold blood and hooked up with Riddler...

Penguin trying to recruit Butch again felt like a means to get Solomon Grundy to join the rest of the Rogues. It works in that regard, but it's also easy to lose count of how many times Butch, Tabby and Barbara have joined up with Penguin or how many times they have opposed him...

Can't wait for next week. Gotham is on a decent roll at the moment.

[costas22]

Oh, and: Did anyone else notice how Gordon pronounce Jeremiah's last name at the station?

He said "Velaska"! He said "Velaska"! I knew I heard well!

Clearly his name is "Valeska", but Ben's accent is awfully heavy at times during this show. I've noticed it before.

[Aries83]

I was prepared for the existence of Jeremiah. What I didn't realise was that he was Jerome's twin and that Cameron would be playing him as well. It's a very interesting development, to say the least. And I am not spoiling anything here when I say that Jeremiah seems fishy. The fact that he lied about his brother threatening him so that he could be sent away proves that he has a mean streak of his own. He just seems more calculating and meticulous than Jerome. It remains to be seen where we go from here, but I like what I am seeing until now.

I like it too, I just feel like I know how it's going to end (like the 514A clone storyline).

Did anyone else get fuzzy feelings when we saw Batman's Rogues gallery, minus Riddler, in the same room? It's been 4 years in the making and it's kind of surprising how downplayed this scene was. On the other hand, their endgame is, dare I say, repetitive? Haven't we seen other Gotham villains try to make the city crazy? How is Jerome's plan different to Tetch or Crane's?

Yeah, all the villains we've seen so far have a one-track mind.

It seems like Jerome and Crane's plots are the same—except Jerome needed Crane to develop the deadly laughing gas (from Batman) for him (and I'm sure he's working on his own fear gas). The problem is that we've seen both of these plots play out in past movies.

Any episode with Jim and Harvey doing detective work together is doing at least one thing right. I like Harper, but it's not the same with her and Jim.

I don't mind either one, but I like Harper's chemistry with Jim.

I wasn't too impressed with Riddle Time. And of course Lee outsmarted him, cementing how brilliant she is, again.

The romance stuff I am not fond of, but it has 2 positives: (a) It keeps Lee away from Jim and (b) It removes the halo away from Lee's head for good. I mean, she knows she's getting close to a criminal and she even suggested robbing banks to him. So clearly she's up to no good. I just wonder if the writers know what they want to do with her? The Narrows storyline felt like a redemption storyline and then she killed Sofia in cold blood and hooked up with Riddler...

My question is this: Why does she have to be with a man at all? Why be with anybody? Why can't she just exist on her own?

Penguin trying to recruit Butch again felt like a means to get Solomon Grundy to join the rest of the Rogues. It works in that regard, but it's also easy to lose count of how many times Butch, Tabby and Barbara have joined up with Penguin or how many times they have opposed him...

But is he Grundy? It seems like they're setting everything up to reverse the condition, which is fine with me. I even liked the prospect of Penguin trying to find Professor Strange (something I forgot to mention).

He said "Velaska"! He said "Velaska"! I knew I heard well!

Clearly his name is "Valeska", but Ben's accent is awfully heavy at times during this show. I've noticed it before.

Yep! See, we're not crazy!

[TyrantLord]

I thought this was one of the best episodes of the season. As a Jerome fan, I liked the fact that the main plot was his and it carried the bulk of the episode. Plot B was meh and plot C was ok (you'll figure out which one is which!).

There was a post in the spoilers thread that revealed some upcoming developments with the show. So I was prepared for the existence of Jeremiah. What I didn't realise was that he was Jerome's twin and that Cameron would be playing him as well. It's a very interesting development, to say the least. And I am not spoiling anything here when I say that Jeremiah seems fishy. The fact that he lied about his brother threatening him so that he could be sent away proves that he has a mean streak of his own. He just seems more calculating and meticulous than Jerome. It remains to be seen where we go from here, but I like what I am seeing until now.

Did anyone else get fuzzy feelings when we saw Batman's Rogues gallery, minus Riddler, in the same room? It's been 4 years in the making and it's kind of surprising how downplayed this scene was. On the other hand, their endgame is, dare I say, repetitive? Haven't we seen other Gotham villains try to make the city crazy? How is Jerome's plan different to Tetch or Crane's?

Any episode with Jim and Harvey doing detective work together is doing at least one thing right. I like Harper, but it's not the same with her and Jim.

Likewise, I wasn't too impressed with Riddle Time. And of course Lee outsmarted him, cementing how brilliant she is, again. The romance stuff I am not fond of, but it has 2 positives: (a) It keeps Lee away from Jim and (b) It removes the halo away from Lee's head for good. I mean, she knows she's getting close to a criminal and she even suggested robbing banks to him. So clearly she's up to no good. I just wonder if the writers know what they want to do with her? The Narrows storyline felt like a redemption storyline and then she killed Sofia in cold blood and hooked up with Riddler...

Penguin trying to recruit Butch again felt like a means to get Solomon Grundy to join the rest of the Rogues. It works in that regard, but it's also easy to lose count of how many times Butch, Tabby and Barbara have joined up with Penguin or how many times they have opposed him...

Can't wait for next week. Gotham is on a decent roll at the moment.

Lol. In my eyes, Lee lost her halo the minute she took the tech virus. She might be able to fool herself into thinking playing "doctor" for the narrows is a path to redemption, but when it comes to Gotham, there is no coming back from that. Barbara learned that lesson the hard way after HER romance with Jim, and she's WAAAAY beyond redemption already. Lee aint too far behind.

[Aurora Moon]

My question is this: Why does she have to be with a man at all? Why be with anybody? Why can't she just exist on her own?

This is my main problem with writers in general... how that never seems to occur to them. I'm not opposed to romance, but it'd be nice of them to show us moments where the woman is without a man for a while and shows us who she is when she's not being with somebody.

It was one of the main things I found so annoying about characters like Lana Lang, etc. And now Lee thompkins is just the latest addition to that list.

Anyhow...

the main plot with Jermaiah was honestly the best parts of the ep. The rest was just..... meh.

[costas22]

I like it too, I just feel like I know how it's going to end (like the 514A clone storyline).

Yeah, now I wish I hadn't read the spoilers. For what it's worth, I'm glad they are using this storyline to get more out of Cameron. He's really grown on me as an actor.

It seems like Jerome and Crane's plots are the same—except Jerome needed Crane to develop the deadly laughing gas (from Batman) for him (and I'm sure he's working on his own fear gas). The problem is that we've seen both of these plots play out in past movies.

I guess that's one difference, isn't it? Crane's was a fear gas while Jerome's was a laughing gas. Didn't occur to me at first that it was inspired by a comics storyline.

Another thing that was an homage to the comics was Jerome's "one bad day" line. It's from the Killing Joke, I believe?

My question is this: Why does she have to be with a man at all? Why be with anybody? Why can't she just exist on her own?

Excellent point. Romance adds nothing to her character and repeatedly brings the worst out of her. This is an issue the show has with Gordon as well. Even in season 4, where he's been romance-free, they had him sleep with Sofia for no reason.

But is he Grundy? It seems like they're setting everything up to reverse the condition, which is fine with me. I even liked the prospect of Penguin trying to find Professor Strange (something I forgot to mention).

To be fair, yes, right now he's more Butch than Grundy. He's only Grundy as far as his appearance is concerned.

Lol. In my eyes, Lee lost her halo the minute she took the tech virus. She might be able to fool herself into thinking playing "doctor" for the narrows is a path to redemption, but when it comes to Gotham, there is no coming back from that. Barbara learned that lesson the hard way after HER romance with Jim, and she's WAAAAY beyond redemption already. Lee aint too far behind.

Well, to be honest I grew sour on her a long while before she took the virus. But yes, technically that was when she really went off the rails. It just strikes me as odd what they are doing in recent weeks because the Narrows storyline was supposed to be a redemption arc for her. Or so it seemed at first.

[Haggard01]

Yes it is a reference to the Killing Joke on the one bad day line that Jerome used, Costas22

[TyrantLord]

Well, to be honest I grew sour on her a long while before she took the virus. But yes, technically that was when she really went off the rails. It just strikes me as odd what they are doing in recent weeks because the Narrows storyline was supposed to be a redemption arc for her. Or so it seemed at first.

I think the idea is that this is supposed to set a pattern/mindset for Jim: Everything he touches dies/gets destroyed. Vale got lucky, she only got shot. Barbara went nuts because another wacko showed her it was fun. Lee's fooling herself into thinking she's "fighting" the crazy but fact is she already lost and doesn't realize it yet. Once she finally gives in, if her affairs with Ed haven't done that already, it's game over and it's Barbara all over again anyways.

The road to hell was paved with good intentions but unfortunately its the road she's travelling on now. Unless she dies soon we may well end up with her as a main villain for season 5 or 6.

[AsteroidMike]

One of the better episodes of the show, and I did love the allusions to The Dark Knight and The Killing Joke made throughout the episode. And the new Joker Venom at the ending.

Also, the fact that a huge chunk of Batman's future Rogues Gallery was present in that meeting at the mansion. It just screamed Batman to me.