Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Divided?"

[KSiteTV]

What did you think?

[BkWurm1]

Extra points for the title of the episode proving very true. The team is divided and I am happy to pick a side.

I already though the NTA (Rene, Dinah, and Curtis and standing for either New Team Arrow or NOT Team Arrow depending on where one stands on the subject) were acting like babies but this raised their whining to whole new levels. And in contrast, we saw Oliver at his more mature and reasonable. And the NTA throwing tantrums. And then putting their secret lair in the one place they know for certain Cayden James knows all about.

Curis is doubling down on being mad for what seems to be the sake of being mad since he did the tracking thing himself last year. He feels betrayed by their lack of trust but is fine hanging with and trusting the actual betrayer. Dinah blew a fuse when her identity gets compromised but had no such reaction to it happening to Oliver. She also basically accused them all of lying about Vince which was so incredibly petulant and petty and then blew a strategic advantage by telling him she knew about him working with James. And Rene, I don't think he's even apologized. And after the hostile tone he's constantly had with Felicity inthe bunker, he has the nerve to complain about her tone this time even though she's totally right about him having been the betrayer.

I don't see how I'll ever like these three again. Maybe if they grovel. MAYBE.

[Raissa]

Word to everything you said, BkWurm1. The writers want us to buy "blame on all sides" based on the writing, but this was cringeworthy. I was just starting to warm to characters I hadn't taken to when they laid this useless narrative on us. It's just sad. Plus, they didn't even have a newspaper article about Barry, so Oliver and Co. could see what an actual personal crisis looks like.

[TheSecretVampire]

Terrible.

The group of villains as a whole are lame and so underwhelming. First off, Black Siren should be on her own doing her own thing. She doesn't need anyone pulling her strings. She is capable on her own to causing havoc and chaos in Star City. And this group poses no real threat because we've seen Oliver and company deal with far worse in past seasons....the only thing holding them back from winning is the rift in the team. They can get back together and then easily beat James and his "group."

[evaba]

Judging by the lack of participation in this thread, lots of people who used to watch and comment are not interesting in fabricated OTA versus NTA drama, or the show itself, for that matter. Seems like this season just continues the downward spiral of mediocrity and uninspired writing.

[BkWurm1]

One of the postives to come out of the rift between the team is I really enjoyed the team dynamic back at the bunker. Oliver going out in the field and Felicity on coms with Diggle helping as best he could. I'll like it even more when it's both Oliver and Diggle in the field but the scenes in the bunker were so much better written and paced and blocked than when it's been the whole slew of masks being juggled.

Let the NTA go play on their own if it means a leaner, meaner home team Arrow.

[evaba]

One of the postives to come out of the rift between the team is I really enjoyed the team dynamic back at the bunker. Oliver going out in the field and Felicity on coms with Diggle helping as best he could. I'll like it even more when it's both Oliver and Diggle in the field but the scenes in the bunker were so much better written and paced and blocked than when it's been the whole slew of masks being juggled.

Let the NTA go play on their own if it means a leaner, meaner home team Arrow.

Well, for those of us who don't find anything especially exciting about Oliver and Felicity engaging in cringey (Chatty-Cathy) "love bickering" over the com, or Felicity directing every step Oliver takes, the prospect of the return of the Allmighty OTA doesn't make the current bore-fest any more interesting to watch. In fact, I wouldn't mind slimming the cast even more for a while, by letting Oliver do some of his own legwork or go out on a mission without having Overwatch monitoring everything he does over the computer. As for Diggle, I concur with those fans who feel that his character has reached a stalemate, and a return to the same-ole-same "OTA dynamics" won't make him any more interesting.

In fact, this artificial rift between the B-team (at least from the hardcore oliciter perspective) and the Originals makes me fear that Diggle will again revert to shilling Felicity or resuming his Olicity fanboy duties. At least with the newbies present he had some interaction with Dinah, rather than being the third wheel to the Olicity ship. Of course, many fans viewed his interaction with Dinah as him being a buffer to stop Oliver from having any meaningful one-on-one interaction with the woman who is supposed to represent his comic book partner..... because God forbid that Oliver Queen should get ANY kind quality time with a woman whose name isn't Felicity Smoak in this travesty of the GA mythos!

So, for those of us who don't feel like the screen lights up with awesomeness every time Oliver, Felicity and Diggle share a scene in the bunker, the OTA-NTA split won't do anything to make "Arrow" more well-written, well-plotted or more enjoyable/exciting to watch. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing more of the newbies/Black Siren and less of the same OTA tropes being rehashed just to please a certain part of the fanbase. Dinah has hardly had any character development since she was introduced in season five, and Black Siren is reduced to a cardboard villainesse. Again, for those of us who find that Oliver has become a a pretty boring protagonist, and who're not especially interested in Felicity/Diggle and their storylines, it would actually benefit the show if we'd get less OTA and more substantial storylines and character development for NTA, Quentin and Black Siren.

[TheSecretVampire]

Yeah, this episodes are only enjoyable right now for those fans of Olicity....otherwise, there is nothing worth watching on Arrow, atm. Heck, even the villains aren't even slightly interesting enough for you to care about their plans for city domination. Well, I only care for Black Siren, but I want her to do her own thing rather than to be once again pulled by the strings....like she was with Zoom and then Prometheus.

[nate-dog1701d]

The fight scenes are much more interesting when Oliver is alone. I've never been thrilled by the fact that this show became so team-oriented, and I'll never understand the insistence upon sending the entire team on practically every mission. I would be all for a return to Oliver alone in the field with the occasional Diggle backup. Of course, that won't happen since the show has fully committed to the team dynamic by putting the extra logos at the beginning.

I have to say, though, that I'm surprised they're forcing so much mileage out of this spying business. The supposed spying took about a minute of screen time, it seemed, and now it's apparently caused this huge rift. It's not even like they had been under constant surveillance since joining the team or had their suits or apartments bugged.

I think the villains are going to suffer from the team dynamic the same way the heroes have over the years. Now that they've all been revealed, we'll have to see all of them together all the time, which will contribute to none of them being interesting.

[Argonar]

On it's own I really liked the episode.
Yes NTA is a whiny bunch and their complains are totally unjustified, but that's just because they are flawed characters. They should go their own way and I want to see them fail miserably, but the problem is that they most likely won't.

And here is my major problem with the series as of right now. Oliver is always doing what he thinks is best in every situation.
Not all of his decisions are nice but in his own "the end justifies the means" way, he is right most of the time. Sometimes things could been handled differently, but Oliver is also a flawed character so that's okay.
Yet the show itself constantly tries to prove to us that he is so wrong and that the opposing side (until now this was either Diggle, Thea, Felicity and now NTA) was actually right all along. Not only by other character reacting in a certain way, but also by events backfiring (usually by something nobody could have known) or by Oliver apologizing and taking the blame.

They should get rid of that mentality all together. Yes let Oliver face the consequences of his decisions. Let him lose the trust of his friends, becuase they get angry, as long as it saves the day. To be honest they already should have done that in the past storylines.

In the current case what imo SHOULD happen is, that at some point NTA realises they cannot stop the threat on their own (because let's be honest, comared to GA they are all amateurs) and crawl back to OTA. They should work with OTA, but when everything is set and done they will still leave for their own group, because they realize Oliver will never fully trust them as much as OTA (and his sister). If the threat is big enough, they will work together, but not on a daily basis. And I think that would also work well for the series in the next season, as not every episode has to have 5 vigilantes taking on normal thugs, when Oliver did it all alone in Seasons 1 and 2. It makes them look incompetent.

What WILL happen though is that both teams on their own will be useless. They will get into some fights with each other, but nothing too serious. In the last 3 episodes they will work things out and forgive each other (most likely by Oliver apologizing again and taking the majority of the blame). Then they will win and the yearly change in the team will happen, because we can't have more than 2 years with the same team members. If I had to guess Curtis goes to Legends and Laurel replaces Dinah for now.

[BkWurm1]

In the current case what imo SHOULD happen is, that at some point NTA realises they cannot stop the threat on their own (because let's be honest, comared to GA they are all amateurs) and crawl back to OTA. They should work with OTA, but when everything is set and done they will still leave for their own group, because they realize Oliver will never fully trust them as much as OTA (and his sister). If the threat is big enough, they will work together, but not on a daily basis. And I think that would also work well for the series in the next season, as not every episode has to have 5 vigilantes taking on normal thugs, when Oliver did it all alone in Seasons 1 and 2. It makes them look incompetent.

I was talking with someone about this very thought. I always enjoy the dynamic and the fights in the field better when there are fewer masks. Sometime the threat actually warrents a large team but why not then have Oliver bringing temporary stringers? Anyone watch Bones? They had a half dozen or more of regularly rotating lab assistants. How about Oliver calls in different people for help? One week it could be the newbs, another Roy and Thea, another Huntress or Constantine or one of the many people that the team knows. Let them order back up ala cart and for the other times, make Oliver and the team get creative for how to cope.


I do actually think that after Oliver invited the NTA back and even apologized (though I don't think he needed to) and the newbs not only turned him down but threw his offer back in his face that the Newbs are going to learn how much less awesome they are on their own than they think and that will be a beautiful thing. And it might mean they eventually come crawling back though it seems more likely it will be a mutual thing but I don't think Oliver will have to grovel. I think him very maturely wishing them well was his version of well, I tried, balls in your court children.

I'm not even sure that this time Oliver is supposed to be seen as in the wrong. At first the show played it as both sides had made mistakes but now the newbs are acting like babies and we find out that they've sat on their butts for 5 weeks like some glorified vacation while Team Arrow has been killing themselves, working overtime.

[President_Luthor]

The writing was overall meh. Compared to S5, this season seems to be still finding its groove.

I agree that the villains, Arrow's version of a sort of Injustice Gang, aren't all that compelling as a cohort. I do like that Black Siren doesn't give a cry that Cayden doesn't like her impulsive ways. She is chafing at the methodical (aka slow) pace of Cayden's scheming and her notion that the group just let GA get away instead of outright killing him. Gives me some hope she'll carve her own path down the line -- not as a Cayden lackey, but not as a mere Team Arrow benchwarmer either. I'm still not enthusiastic about a redemption arc but I guess they need to justify having such a plot around to keep Quentin active/relevant.

I haven't changed my views on the Arrowcave being too crowded, but for me it's not a new team vs.old team issue as much as the increasingly pressing issue of the show needing an infusion -- characters, plots, etc. No immunity idols either for years of service. Sorry, looking at you especially, Quentin. If all they have for him is this redemption arc with E2 Laurel ... it's unfortunate. The show is running on fumes creatively with him and Thea. Maybe Roy's return is setting up a fitting exit for Speedy?

Playing the trust card as the conflict isn't exactly new with this Arrow crew. We've seen variations of it over the years. That's why the team blowup was irritating and, after six years, a bit repetitive The dialogue during the squabble was juvenile, nobody came off as particularly sensible or sympathetic. I know Diggle made the obvious point that they are numerically at a disadvantage -- but this should have been obvious to all of them by now.

A team split may be good for them, old and new, if only to give the teams some breathing room storywise and we all know this split will somehow mend by late season. All this could have been resolved over coffee in 10 minutes, but we all know the show prefers the complicated and melodramatically heavy route. Let's not forget that Oliver is still lying to William, long past the time it made sense to fess up. There is likely an alternate earth where William grows up to be a super villain and I can't help but think that those seeds were planted in S5-6.

Go Team Cayden! Im only half-joking here. Didn't Yoda say failure, the best teacher is. New and old teams need hearty servings of humble pie, and if the dude from Lost, Mitch from The Walking Dead, Anatoly, Vigilante, Laurel from another Earth and their crew gotta serve it to them, painfully, I say: teach them all a lesson. Make 'em bleed, Team Cayden, make 'em bleed. #KnockSenseIntoThem 🤣

I did enjoy the Arrow action sequences. That scene where we had GA's pov where he took down, like, a dozen guys was really cool. No CGI meta power bells and whistles here, action remains one of Arrow's stronger element.

And it's also good to see that there are still many branches of the Bertinelli crime tree, though they are a shadow of their former selves.

The result of the episode was Divided, but the cause was definitely Collective Stupidity. And the odds are they will pay for it in the next few weeks.

[zibroweed]

@Argonar I hope you're right and they send send Curtis to Legends. Particularly because I don't watch legends. He can go over there and make his little digging comments about how he loves his new team that he can trust (including someone who will secretly betray anyone if the right pressure is applied). The one thing I liked about this episode (the the show in general as of late) is that the hero really does act like a hero. He makes the hard calls even when people are questioning them and then takes full responsibility for the fallout. He looks the traitor in the face and says 'I forgive you' (more or less) and then takes it in stride when that person throws it back in his face and pretends that they were wrong not to trust him as he betrayed them. Watching Diggle and Felicity actually have his back instead of trying to be his overly emotional conscience has been nice too. It really is rare to get a hero who consistently acts like a hero in a TV show. Flawed but very rarely selfish and even less often lacking self-awareness. Oliver never wanted a larger team but got dragged into it by felicity when she was being the obnoxious emotional conscience. Yes the show writers made him *need* the larger team and I'm sure they will again to resolve this arch but it really feels like they're unconsciously justifying all his concerns with growing the team to start with. Legitimately. He didn't trust the new members and was proved correct in not doing so.

[BkWurm1]

@Argonar I hope you're right and they send send Curtis to Legends. Particularly because I don't watch legends. He can go over there and make his little digging comments about how he loves his new team that he can trust (including someone who will secretly betray anyone if the right pressure is applied). The one thing I liked about this episode (the the show in general as of late) is that the hero really does act like a hero. He makes the hard calls even when people are questioning them and then takes full responsibility for the fallout. He looks the traitor in the face and says 'I forgive you' (more or less) and then takes it in stride when that person throws it back in his face and pretends that they were wrong not to trust him as he betrayed them. Watching Diggle and Felicity actually have his back instead of trying to be his overly emotional conscience has been nice too. It really is rare to get a hero who consistently acts like a hero in a TV show. Flawed but very rarely selfish and even less often lacking self-awareness. Oliver never wanted a larger team but got dragged into it by felicity when she was being the obnoxious emotional conscience. Yes the show writers made him *need* the larger team and I'm sure they will again to resolve this arch but it really feels like they're unconsciously justifying all his concerns with growing the team to start with. Legitimately. He didn't trust the new members and was proved correct in not doing so.

I agree with much of your post, not so much the "obnoxious conscience" part. Back at the start of season five, he'd been trying to cover the city all by himself all summer. Diggle was off in the army so he was down a man. Adding Curtic, Rene and Eveylyn (then Rory and Dinah) all probably barely added up to much more than Diggle brought, lol. So I do think he needed to expand the team rather than do it all on his own but i also think that now the team has gotten too big if only because of their entitled and petulant behavior in this situation.

I have loved Oliver's mature and steady way he's handled this. It's been so refreshing. Also, Oliver taking the high road has just underlined how awful the newbs have been behaving.

[zibroweed]

I agree with much of your post, not so much the "obnoxious conscience" part. Back at the start of season five, he'd been trying to cover the city all by himself all summer. Diggle was off in the army so he was down a man. Adding Curtic, Rene and Eveylyn (then Rory and Dinah) all probably barely added up to much more than Diggle brought, lol. So I do think he needed to expand the team rather than do it all on his own but i also think that now the team has gotten too big if only because of their entitled and petulant behavior in this situation.

I have loved Oliver's mature and steady way he's handled this. It's been so refreshing. Also, Oliver taking the high road has just underlined how awful the newbs have been behaving.

Dang! I'd forgotten all about the old newbs. I miss Rory. He and Dina have been the only newbs I've been completely sold on even if she is acting out in this episode she looked as if she was ready to concede the point at the end before Curtis started leading the charge again.