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Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Deathstroke Returns?"

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  • Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Deathstroke Returns?"

    So I guess I have to actually be online to create threads because no one else wants to or cares?

    Anyway, talk about the Arrow episode "Deathstroke Returns" here!
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  • #2
    I like where they're going with the Slade story line. Didn't see that ending coming so that was fun. I also think they made an interesting decision with vigilante and am looking forward to how they decide to develop that. I'm not in love with the FBI investigator as an actress as the attitude she puts on seems to be a little much at times (I like the hard nose aspect she just seems to have a little more sauce than I like from my calculating moral antagonists), but I do think it was a reasonably good idea to bring the feds into the mix to complicate things now that team arrow wields significant power over local government including the police department. Last season it was balanced out by a betrayer from within the structure, so it makes sense that they would bring in another level of law enforcement this season to provide that vigilante tension with having people who think of them as enemies who they morally can't go after.
    Last edited by zibroweed; 11-11-2017, 03:18 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by KSiteTV
      So I guess I have to actually be online to create threads because no one else wants to or cares?

      Anyway, talk about the Arrow episode "Deathstroke Returns" here!
      Sadly Arrow has lost the steam it once had. The show has lost many of it's followers and the result is a continually less active forum.
      I comment less but I look in regularly to see what others write, I've noticed the decline of activity and wish I could help but I can't comment on current episodes or speculations as to what might happen because the actual show no longer interests me. The idea of the show and others opinions to what happens still interests me though.
      Last edited by DoubleDevil; 11-11-2017, 03:40 AM.

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      • #4
        I wish I could have participated more since I consider Kryptonsite my message board home over the past 10 years. And especially for this episode and the next because the Deathstroke 2-parter was one of the few things about the Berlantiverse that got me excited over the summer.

        Unfortunately I had to give up all 4 shows (no use in explaining why again) and that has limited my presence at Kryptonsite. And from the few developments I've found out about, it wouldn't surprise me if other people felt disillusioned by what they are getting this season. The Flash sounds like a mess that learned nothing from last season and from what I gather, Olicity are a thing again after Felicity helped Oliver out with William. So in essence, Samantha was sacrificed to pave the way for the reunion everyone knew was coming after all the melodrama of the past 2 years. Which I guess is poetic because Samantha was the reason they broke up in the first place. But it is also why the show has been averaging 1.3 million viewers ever since Olicity reunited.

        Sorry for going off topic and not offering anything relevant to this episode's discussion. For what it's worth, I hope it was enjoyable for the fans who have stuck around this long. I'm certain Manu was his usual awesome Deathstroke self.
        Last edited by costas22; 11-11-2017, 04:19 AM.

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        • #5
          Yeah, Arrow is simply running out of steam - not just in the ratings, but also in terms of online activity. The Arrow Reddit isn't nearly as active as it once was, neither are the Arrow-related tags on Tumblr. I have also noticed that the comment sections under the weekly Arrow reviews at AV Club and IGN do not attract as much online discourse as they used to, either. For example, at AV Club, the most talked about episode stands at 76 comments this year. For the sake of comparison: The season 5 finale had over 1000! This show is going to suffer the same fate like The Vampire Diaries. By the time it ends, nobody is going to give a damn aside from hardcore (Olicity) shippers.
          Last edited by shadow08; 11-11-2017, 03:54 PM.

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          • #6
            By the time it ends, nobody is going to give a damn aside from hardcore (Olicity) shippers.
            Considering that Guggenheim and his writers have been catering to the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans since season three, I can't pity them for the shoddy ratings and the lack of fandom interest. I'll happily let the Oliciters swoon over their Queen's IMHO pointless storylines and lackluster dramatic acting, the trite/saccharine Olicity "feels" and the contrived/retconned #OTA "dynamics" (and the general sub-par plotting/writing), while I enjoy series like "The Punisher", whose quality of writing, acting and general execution probably will be leagues above the current "Arrow" fanservice mess.

            It's not accidental that most polls (at least those that haven't been brigaded by Olicity fans) will cite seasons one and two as the best "Arrow" seasons, much thanks to the presence of such fine actors as Susanna Thompson, Colin Salmon, Colin Donnell, Paul Blackthorne et al and a kind of writing that made "Arrow" an instant success in the comic book adaptation/action genre. Right now it's mostly a rehashing of the same ole same storylines and plot points, and with so many other well-produced and well-acted superhero shows around, I can understand that Guggenheim and company rely on the shippers to keep the show alive. That is probably why they had Slade praise Felicity (and Oliver agree with him!) in this ep, while the non-shipper fans cringed and shook their heads at the silliness and the cheapness of it all.
            Last edited by evaba; 11-11-2017, 04:54 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by evaba
              Considering that Guggenheim and his writers have been catering to the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans since season three, I can't pity them for the shoddy ratings and the lack of fandom interest. I'll happily let the Oliciters swoon over their Queen's IMHO pointless storylines and lackluster dramatic acting, the trite/saccharine Olicity "feels" and the contrived/retconned #OTA "dynamics" (and the general sub-par plotting/writing), while I enjoy series like "The Punisher", whose quality of writing, acting and general execution probably will be leagues above the current "Arrow" fanservice mess.

              It's not accidental that most polls (at least those that haven't been brigaded by Olicity fans) will cite seasons one and two as the best "Arrow" seasons, much thanks to the presence of such fine actors as Susanna Thompson, Colin Salmon, Colin Donnell, Paul Blackthorne et al and a kind of writing that made "Arrow" an instant success in the comic book adaptation/action genre. Right now it's mostly a rehashing of the same ole same storylines and plot points, and with so many other well-produced and well-acted superhero shows around, I can understand that Guggenheim and company rely on the shippers to keep the show alive. That is probably why they had Slade praise Felicity (and Oliver agree with him!) in this ep, while the non-shipper fans cringed and shook their heads at the silliness and the cheapness of it all.
              Would love reading a review from you on the Punisher evaba. Love your in depth and detailed critique.
              I agree the caliber of actors and quality of writing was far superior in seasons 1 & 2 of Arrow. We get another season of King Pin with DD season 3 so any that saw season 2 as a stumble should feel good about the up coming season. Vincent is what Barrowman should've been for Arrow.
              Last edited by DoubleDevil; 11-11-2017, 05:26 PM.

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              • #8
                I'm not as active around here not because I don't care about the show, but because I can't watch Arrow in sync wirh its US air date this season. So it's logistics, not my own verdict on the show, that has cut back my activity in the Arrow threads.

                I'm not in the US, so we are at the mercy of when the network that carries it here chooses to air it -- which is the following Wednesday. I do get to watch Flash live and sometimes LoT, so I may pop in those threads.

                I won't go on again about my "superhero fatigue" issue, which affects my TV viewing choices across the board: DC, Marvel, etc. I couldn't stick with The Gifted, Legion and others for this reason, for example.

                I usually put in my two cents about Arrow, but odds are you won't see a review from me til a week after the US airdate, if I do get to post. And I do try to be objective and moderate when I do, I'm not a stickler for strict canon or obsessed with shipping at all.

                I probably won't wade into spoilers a lot, because I actually don't want to be spoiled about new eps.

                So I will get to talking about the latest episodes I see ... but likely a week later.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by President_Luthor
                  I'm not as active around here not because I don't care about the show, but because I can't watch Arrow in sync wirh its US air date this season. So it's logistics, not my own verdict on the show, that has cut back my activity in the Arrow threads.

                  I'm not in the US, so we are at the mercy of when the network that carries it here chooses to air it -- which is the following Wednesday. I do get to watch Flash live and sometimes LoT, so I may pop in those threads.

                  I won't go on again about my "superhero fatigue" issue, which affects my TV viewing choices across the board: DC, Marvel, etc. I couldn't stick with The Gifted, Legion and others for this reason, for example.

                  I usually put in my two cents about Arrow, but odds are you won't see a review from me til a week after the US airdate, if I do get to post. And I do try to be objective and moderate when I do, I'm not a stickler for strict canon or obsessed with shipping at all.

                  I probably won't wade into spoilers a lot, because I actually don't want to be spoiled about new eps.

                  So I will get to talking about the latest episodes I see ... but likely a week later.
                  You are another who's reviews I enjoy reading President_Luther, you add a touch of humor to them that's unique here.

                  Legion I finished but the Inhumans, the Gifted and the Runaways don't really stir my interest, although reading the reviews of the Gifted has sparked my interest somewhat. I doubt I'll watch season 2 of Legion, it was to psychedelic and 60's-70's for me.

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                  • #10
                    I miss you guys and the discussions here.

                    I am not in the US, so I have to buy things on Amazon prime - and so far I do that only for Arrow. Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Supergirl: I wait for them to come at free TV (usually about half to one year later). So since I stopped watching Gotham Arrow is the only superhero show I currently watch. And so far I do like where they take season six. Though I still miss Thea, Roy and Moira, they kept Slade and Anatoly and I hope we will get some more information about Chase sooner or later via the Cayden James storyline. I also hope Nyssa will appear again because she really has grown on me. The FBI investigation is intriguing because - as we saw this episode - the fact that Oliver Queen is GA is not exactly a secret for a certain kind of people all over the world. So what exactly is the agenda of the FBI agent?

                    I am neither a Felicity nor an Olicity fan but I have made my peace with both as long as they don't annoy me again as in season three and four. I just put my focus on other aspects and characters. I liked where they went with Dinah and Vigilante this episode and I am looking forward to their storyline. Oliver telling Rene he was mayor in his absence was an amusing scene.

                    Best of course was Slade becoming Deathstroke again. Oliver's remark about Slade not being as he used to be obviously was not up to date Though Slade broke into a sweat without the mirakuru - I do wonder when and how he will get injected or inject himself with miracuru again because I read that Deathstroke in the comics has some drug in his system but in contrast to everybody else he does not go crazy due to it. So I hope they will take his Arrow story there.

                    It was intriguing to see on the one hand Slade doing his best to keep Oliver out of danger but on the other hand having left Oliver's team on Lian Yu. As I wrote before I did enjoy the flashbacks most of the time and I hope we will see some explanations of what happened on Lian Yu after the explosions. The flashbacks with Slade and his son were enjoyable, too, showing Slade searching for Yao Fei. It also seems that Lian Yu did change Slade - and not necessarily for the worse (except for the mirakuru insanity later), because somehow I think that the Slade we saw in this flashback would have killed Oliver when they met first in season one flashback.

                    The Oliver-Slade interaction was really enjoyable and I cherish every moment of it.

                    The end was surprising and I can't wait for next week.

                    !0/10 because I really enjoyed every moment of this episode.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by President_Luthor
                      So I will get to talking about the latest episodes I see ... but likely a week later.
                      I am looking forward to it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by costas22
                        I'm certain Manu was his usual awesome Deathstroke self.
                        He certainly was, IMO. I enjoy him both on Arrow and Shannara . He acts Slade and Allanon quite differently - somehow Slade seems much more intense to me.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by evaba
                          Considering that Guggenheim and his writers have been catering to the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans since season three, I can't pity them for the shoddy ratings and the lack of fandom interest. I'll happily let the Oliciters swoon over their Queen's IMHO pointless storylines and lackluster dramatic acting, the trite/saccharine Olicity "feels" and the contrived/retconned #OTA "dynamics" (and the general sub-par plotting/writing), while I enjoy series like "The Punisher", whose quality of writing, acting and general execution probably will be leagues above the current "Arrow" fanservice mess.
                          I have to say I am very glad I don't read comments anywhere else but here. It seems to me that reading all those Oliciters comments gives too much importance to one character and one small storyline. I remember how much I disliked Kira on ST DS9 and after a while I simply didn't read all those comments that praised her any more but focused on the characters I loved.

                          Originally posted by evaba
                          Right now it's mostly a rehashing of the same ole same storylines and plot points,
                          Can you explain what you mean here because I really don't see that.

                          Originally posted by evaba
                          That is probably why they had Slade praise Felicity (and Oliver agree with him!) in this ep, while the non-shipper fans cringed and shook their heads at the silliness and the cheapness of it all.
                          I felt it differently. I though Slade had been quite confused about Oliver's relationships on Lian Yu (him being married to Nyssa, but being kissed by Felicity) and still is. And his remark about Oliver not being the most intelligent or best student ever just felt like a flashback to the time on Lian Yu when Slade was Oliver's teacher. I really don't want Felicity to give the power to take all the fun out of an otherwise enjoyable series.

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                          • #14
                            Right now it's mostly a rehashing of the same ole same storylines and plot points
                            I'm thinking of stuff like Oliver hanging up his bow to become a civilian and exploring family life (which was what he did with Felicity between S3 and S4) while someone else who is pretending to be Green Arrow fights crime in Star City (a throwback to Roy impersonating GA and Diggle/Speedy/BC fighting crime without Oliver). We also have Quentin's whole circus of daughters dying and being brought back to life as well as his on-and-off alcohol abuse, Willa being absent for a major part of the season and a resurrection of the Olicity saga which gives you the impression that their S4 clashes AND Billy's death never happened.

                            I guess it just feels that the writers are a bit on auto-pilot, to the point where you can almost guess certain story developments and plot points because you've seen them before. As for me personally, those elements which could have made S6 interesting, such as Dinah's and Black Siren's relationship with Oliver are neglected, in what seems to an attempt to safeguard the Oliver/Felicity romance at all costs and highlight OTA as Oliver's only important relationship besides Thea (at least if you're a tad suspicious of Guggenheim and his writers and their Olicity/OTA love!).

                            Also, I wouldn't have complained about Slade's Felicity praise if this character shilling hadn't been part of a recurring pattern of similar in fiction fawning over Felicity over the course of several seasons. In fact, on another forum there were threads even BEFORE the Slade episode, where people predicted that he would say something (positive) about Felicity, because everyone and his mother (even the Big Bads!) have to single out Felicity Smoak and praise her superior intelligence, "empathy" and general "specialness" in relation to every other woman in the Arrowverse. I personally think this exaggerated shilling is detrimental to Felicity's character portrayal, because it really highlights her role as a Mary Sue/writers' pet. If Slade's mention of her brilliance had been an isolated instance it wouldn't have been noticed the way it was, but now it just fuels the dislike for her character, at least in some corners of the fandom.

                            I'm glad you still enjoy "Arrow". For me the magic started wearing off in S4, and it didn't return in season five, although it was undoubtedly a lot more watchable than the season four trainwreck. It just feels as though the show's DNA has changed so much, and that characters and relationships that I don't care very much about have taken center stage, while the other characters don't interest me much either. I mean, if Curtis would suddenly disappear, I wouldn't miss him one bit, and as for Dinah and Black Siren, they mostly feel like bit players. And it's not because they're not given screen time or (some) plot importance, but because they're not allowed to have any deeper connection with the protagonist. Dinah has barely had a convo with Oliver which wasn't strictly business, and I doubt that Black Siren and Oliver/GA will share any scenes in a foreseeable future. Someone made a very good point about Diggle's, Dinah's and Black Siren't role in a narrative that is slowly morphing into the Olicity/OTA show:

                            Diggle isn't going to die because they need a barrier between Oliver and Tina. Quentin isn't going to die because they need a barrier between Oliver and Black Siren. And Siren isn't going to die because they need to keep Tina busy.
                            Again, this may be verging into conspiracy theory territory, but there is a grain of truth in this IMHO. The writers simply don't seem to care that much about characters whose names aren't Oliver, Felicity or Diggle. Dinah's incredibly sloppy, forced and clumsy introduction, as well as her continued marginalization during season five, shows this. Dinah's character was probably brought in as damage control after the outrage after Laurel was killed (or because of pressure from DC higher ups). However, the idea that taking an unrelated character and slapping a BC identity/characteristics on her would appease the Laurel fans is just naive. It's as if the writers believe that it doesn't matter who wears the BC mantle, as long as she is in the story!

                            Also, after Dinah was introduced the writers didn't seem very interested in doing much to build up her character or make us connect to her, which begs the question why they even bothered introducing her. The same could be said about Black Siren....Guggenheim has sure done his best to make her irredeemable, despite the fact that the idea/hope of a redemption is what keeps most Laurel 1 fans watching, and despite the fact that moral ambiguity would make her a more interesting character. Right now she's just a one-dimensional villainesse whose motivations remain unknown/muddled and who is embroiled in some contrived rivalry with Dinah Drake.

                            In short: Guggenheim and his writers have IMHO clearly shown where their priorities lie when it comes to character prominence (which characters are "the core" and which are merely B-team members/characters) and importance in Oliver's life. Non-related female characters are almost prohibited from having any deeper emotional interaction with Oliver, while we're fed at least two "Olicity moments" in every ep, and while the writers continue to lionize (to use President Luthor's apt description!) and retcon the OTA connection to Oliver, thus totally buying into the whole #OTA mythology which has been erected and embellished by the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fandom.

                            All this has made "Arrow" much less interesting for me to follow than it was in its heyday. With the plethora of much better written and more balanced superhero shows around, I can understand that "Arrow" is losing even more viewers than they already did over the course of season five.
                            Last edited by evaba; 11-12-2017, 08:07 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DoubleDevil
                              Would love reading a review from you on the Punisher evaba. Love your in depth and detailed critique.
                              I agree the caliber of actors and quality of writing was far superior in seasons 1 & 2 of Arrow. We get another season of King Pin with DD season 3 so any that saw season 2 as a stumble should feel good about the up coming season. Vincent is what Barrowman should've been for Arrow.
                              I'll probably be posting on the Ksite Punisher forum, and I'm sure that I'll be less grumpy and negative! I just saw the trailer, and I'm SYKED (as the kiddos like to say!). Bernthal is a brilliant actor, and the action scenes are breath-taking. I also hope that the whole ruthless avenger/vigilante theme and the issue of whether anyone has the right to kill/maim in order to bring justice will be dealt with during the course of the series. To me this is an important aspect of superhero fiction, especially when your (anti)hero is shown to be extremely violent and lethal. This aspect has been completely glossed over on "Arrow" lately, as the show moves closer to the typical CW shipper oriented story content, with marriage bliss and domestic happiness for the titular hero..... whose dark background as a serial killer is almost obliterated in order to capitalize on Olicity "feels" and feed into the fantasies of the shipper fandom.
                              Last edited by evaba; 11-12-2017, 07:12 AM.

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