Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Reversal?"

[JDBentz]

It's comments like these (which abound online) which has made me fear that 6.4 will be another declaration of love for Miss Perfect Felicity Smoak!



I do see your point about the writers trying to give Felicity some flaws, but my impression is that even when Felicity is shown to have faults, the script treats them in a way that makes them seem like slight misteps, which can always be excused (fatigue, stress), and which seldom break down Felicity's armor of near-perfection. And then there was the ludicrous and clumsy in-fiction Olicity shipping (Curtis saying that he "ships" Oliver and Felicity, REALLY???), which is frankly just as annoying as the coddling and praising of Felicity.

I'll be honest: it more or less was for a couple of scenes. I scored based on the overall episode, but if i had to score based specifically on the shipping nonsense, it'd probably get a 3/10. Oliver was his usual spineless self when it comes to telling Felicity that, yeah, she effed up royally with releasing Cayden James and there has yet to be a single person who puts forth the question to her of, "if Slade was kept in a decent cell, why was Cayden James kept hidden away the way he was if he was 'just' a hacktivist?"

Of course, Curtis' thing made me kinda laugh just because he's not their biggest shipper in-show. That "honor" goes to Dig the Dimwit, who has decided juicing is the way to go.

[evaba]

Of course, Curtis' thing made me kinda laugh just because he's not their biggest shipper in-show. That "honor" goes to Dig the Dimwit, who has decided juicing is the way to go.

Oh, Diggle is definitely the biggest in-house Olicity shipper and Felicity shiller! But then again, his main function since at least season three is to be the third wheel in the #OTA fantasy, rather than an independent character with is own alliances and storylines. Of course, #OTA is David Ramsey's meal ticket, and that is probably why he praises alleged Original Team in interviews and convention Q&As. I'm sure he enjoys their camaraderie as well, but his constant singling out of one of the many team constellations does seem a bit self-serving IMHO. It's even a tad misguided, since DR is apparently unaware that there are loads of fans who don't see anything special about O/F/D and their interaction, and would prefer if OTHER characters were allowed to interact more with Oliver. One example is Dinah, who has hardly shared a more deep/emotional scene with Oliver since she was introduced. I would personally gladly exchange Curtis for Roy, one of Oliver's/Green Arrow's REAL original team members. But maybe that would have been too true to the original sources, which as we all know are more or less irrelevant for a GA adaptation....

[Freawaru]

I do see your point about the writers trying to give Felicity some flaws, but my impression is that even when Felicity is shown to have faults, the script treats them in a way that makes them seem like slight misteps, which can always be excused (fatigue, stress), and which seldom break down Felicity's armor of near-perfection.

Assuming that Felicity/Olicity is necessary according to TPTB how would you develop Felicity and how would you let the other characters interact with her regarding her flaws?

And then there was the ludicrous and clumsy in-fiction Olicity shipping (Curtis saying that he "ships" Oliver and Felicity, REALLY???), which is frankly just as annoying as the coddling and praising of Felicity.

I admit don't like these aspects, too. But I rarely like EVERYTHING about a series, so I am usually glad for every improvement.

[Freawaru]

Oliver was his usual spineless self when it comes to telling Felicity that, yeah, she effed up royally with releasing Cayden James and there has yet to be a single person who puts forth the question to her of, "if Slade was kept in a decent cell, why was Cayden James kept hidden away the way he was if he was 'just' a hacktivist?"

But writing-wise Felicity DID accuse herself of not seeing the obvious (namely that Cayden James was no innocent), right? She said "it is all my fault", too, right?

What exactly do you want from the characters? If someone who is your friend would already accept that he effed up royally, would you hurt this person even more by accusing him and telling even more how bad they were?

[JDBentz]

But writing-wise Felicity DID accuse herself of not seeing the obvious (namely that Cayden James was no innocent), right? She said "it is all my fault", too, right?

What exactly do you want from the characters? If someone who is your friend would already accept that he effed up royally, would you hurt this person even more by accusing him and telling even more how bad they were?

Yeah, and then everyone coddled her like normal and she still thinks James was just some hacktivist.

I want the characters to have guts and call each other out on their BS like they used to, and like Dinah is doing with Dig. Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea 'right now' in this episode, but if someone doesn't at some point ask Felicity point-blank why she thinks ARGUS would hold someone who's 'just a hacktivist' the way they held James when even Slade got a decent cell, then as far as I'm concerned the writers are continuing to make the characters spineless so Felicity can be a shining beacon of innocence.

And in all honesty? I want Felicity to face some actual damned consequences. She released a terrorist (and that is what James is and probably was), and has had no consequences. Even in the comics that crap don't fly. So if the best I can get is someone asking Felicity what I said above, I'll take it. My preference would be her taking James' place in a blacksite.

[evaba]

Yeah, and then everyone coddled her like normal and she still thinks James was just some hacktivist.

I want the characters to have guts and call each other out on their BS like they used to, and like Dinah is doing with Dig. Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea 'right now' in this episode, but if someone doesn't at some point ask Felicity point-blank why she thinks ARGUS would hold someone who's 'just a hacktivist' the way they held James when even Slade got a decent cell, then as far as I'm concerned the writers are continuing to make the characters spineless so Felicity can be a shining beacon of innocence.

And in all honesty? I want Felicity to face some actual damned consequences. She released a terrorist (and that is what James is and probably was), and has had no consequences. Even in the comics that crap don't fly. So if the best I can get is someone asking Felicity what I said above, I'll take it. My preference would be her taking James' place in a blacksite.

PREACH! To answer your question, Freawaru, I would like to see Felicity being seriously called out on her mistakes or bad decisions, like Laurel was many times during the course of the series, both by Oliver and by her father. The fact that Laurel had real obstacles to overcome, that she actually clashed with her loved ones over important issues, and that she wasn't always treated as a Special Snowflake by those she cared for made her a character that I found interesting to watch. She wasn't always "likeable", but that didn't matter to me, because I don't rate characters according to these parameters. Of course, one could say that Felicity has had obstacles and setbacks as well (paralysis storyline, her relation with her parents), but to me they seemed to be mostly glossed over. Furthermore, they were never the result of her OWN faults or wrong-doings (as opposed to Laurel's substance abuse arc)...and even in the case of the HELIX storyline, I just don't see her being portrayed as suffering the consequences of her mistakes/stubborness. I also guess that I'm pretty allergic to characters who are treated as "special" by their co-characters the way Felicity often is, especially when their on screen behavior in my eyes doesn't make them worthy of all this in fiction admiration and praise.....it just seems fake to me, and mostly a pretty blatant example of fanservice to an online fanbase.

[Haggard01]

are treated as "special" by their co-characters the way Felicity often is, especially

I have issues with people who are treated like that in real life of being "special" when they really aren't and have my fair share of dealings with them as well.

[Freawaru]

Yeah, and then everyone coddled her like normal and she still thinks James was just some hacktivist.

She said that it all had been in front of her and she didn't see it (or something like that). It seems to me that she does see her mistake, but not the fullness of it. She still trusts Alena and is okay with herself trusting Alena even though she knows nothing about her. And of course Felicity will have a really bad awakening when she finds out that James used her all along and plans to do so again (as we saw at the end of this episode).

I want the characters to have guts and call each other out on their BS like they used to, and like Dinah is doing with Dig. Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea 'right now' in this episode, but if someone doesn't at some point ask Felicity point-blank why she thinks ARGUS would hold someone who's 'just a hacktivist' the way they held James when even Slade got a decent cell, then as far as I'm concerned the writers are continuing to make the characters spineless so Felicity can be a shining beacon of innocence.

I would not call it spineless - after all Oliver also told Thea that things were not her fault all the time and sometimes I am not sure he does not see Felicity as his sister or student. Same with Diggle. Both of them never saw Felicity as someone equal in the sense of maturity and experience. It seems to me it is difficult not to go down the road of self-blame and loosing the ability to function (like Laurel did when she started to drink because she blamed herself for Tommy's death) and instead learn from one's mistakes. So far Felicity has a tendency (like Laurel did) to go the former path and it seems to me that Oliver and Diggle try to prevent that, because they need Felicity to function.

As to someone someday asking Felicity about ARGUS and holding just a "hacktivist" the way they did: I would LOVE it if Lyla did that. She is after all the one Felicity hurt most, both by putting Alena's word over hers and by planting a wedge not only between ARGUS and team Arrow but also between Lyla and her husband.

And in all honesty? I want Felicity to face some actual damned consequences. She released a terrorist (and that is what James is and probably was), and has had no consequences. Even in the comics that crap don't fly. So if the best I can get is someone asking Felicity what I said above, I'll take it. My preference would be her taking James' place in a blacksite.

But yes, I agree. Felicity should face consequences and learn from them.

[Freawaru]

PREACH! To answer your question, Freawaru, I would like to see Felicity being seriously called out on her mistakes or bad decisions, like Laurel was many times during the course of the series, both by Oliver and by her father. The fact that Laurel had real obstacles to overcome, that she actually clashed with her loved ones over important issues, and that she wasn't always treated as a Special Snowflake by those she cared for made her a character that I found interesting to watch. She wasn't always "likeable", but that didn't matter to me, because I don't rate characters according to these parameters. Of course, one could say that Felicity has had obstacles and setbacks as well (paralysis storyline, her relation with her parents), but to me they seemed to be mostly glossed over.

Yes, even in season four Laurel got better writing and character development than Felicity, who we are supposed to take as female lead.

Furthermore, they were never the result of her OWN faults or wrong-doings (as opposed to Laurel's substance abuse arc)...and even in the case of the HELIX storyline, I just don't see her being portrayed as suffering the consequences of her mistakes/stubborness.

Include arrogance here. She always believes she knows better than everybody else. But it fit's the character, IMO. She is a partial genius and was a protege child and all that. Add here that her mother is not the sharpest one (though she had more wisdom than Felicity if you ask me) and Felicity felt, probable still does, embarrassed because of that. While Oliver grew up believing he would never need to take responsibility and face consequences, Felicity grew up believing she knows better than everybody else and doesn't need to take advice from anybody.

I also guess that I'm pretty allergic to characters who are treated as "special" by their co-characters the way Felicity often is, especially when their on screen behavior in my eyes doesn't make them worthy of all this in fiction admiration and praise.....it just seems fake to me, and mostly a pretty blatant example of fanservice to an online fanbase.

I agree. But do you really still see them doing that? James's "praise" of Felicity included that she was stupid enough to always be manipulated to do what he wanted. Oliver's "praise" included that he did what she did to him: believe in him even though he made and makes mistakes. And in this ep Dig ORDERED Felicity to take a time-out because she was out of bounds.

[DoubleDevil]

Since this thread has gone more into Felicity in general and less episode specific I think I can add my two cents as well (I haven't seen the episode and have no inclination to watch it).

Felicity is a character that has been poorly written and put up on a pedestal for so long that any “redemption“ to correct the mistakes they've made comes way to late, she's a character you either love or love to hate at this point or, if you're like me, completely and totally disinterested in anything and everything she is involved with. The show can do whatever they want but anything they do with Felicity doesn't make any difference to me in the least. Give her decent character development, give her a good story arc, I don't care because the character is of no interest to me. She might as well be a random villain of the week that just happens to have a recurring role week after week.

[shadow08]

Since this thread has gone more into Felicity in general and less episode specific I think I can add my two cents as well (I haven't seen the episode and have no inclination to watch it).

Felicity is a character that has been poorly written and put up on a pedestal for so long that any “redemption“ to correct the mistakes they've made comes way to late, she's a character you either love or love to hate at this point or, if you're like me, completely and totally disinterested in anything and everything she is involved with. The show can do whatever they want but anything they do with Felicity doesn't make any difference to me in the least. Give her decent character development, give her a good story arc, I don't care because the character is of no interest to me. She might as well be a random villain of the week that just happens to have a recurring role week after week.

This is where I'm at right now. I couldn't care less for Felicity, her relationships or her stupid hacker plots. Any time she appears on-screen, I automatically hit the fast-forward button and no matter what the writers decide to do with her from here on in, that isn't going to change. She simply isn't my cup of tea and hasn't been for years.

[DoubleDevil]

This is where I'm at right now. I couldn't care less for Felicity, her relationships or her stupid hacker plots. Any time she appears on-screen, I automatically hit the fast-forward button and no matter what the writers decide to do with her from here on in, that isn't going to change. She simply isn't my cup of tea and hasn't been for years.

Felicity is that kid in school that everyone ignores and avoids in the hallways or the annoying co-worker that when they show up people try to look so busy that they can't chat with them. She's a nuisance that viewers of Arrow have to accept because they have no real influence in the show but silently protest being forced to accept somebody they have no interest in.

I basically stopped watching regularly after season 3 (haven't seen any of season 5 except a couple of very select episodes, and nothing of season 6), my dislike for Felicity grew to hatred in season 3 and to total disinterest during my irregular viewing of season 4 (which I still haven't completely watched).

[JDBentz]

She said that it all had been in front of her and she didn't see it (or something like that). It seems to me that she does see her mistake, but not the fullness of it. She still trusts Alena and is okay with herself trusting Alena even though she knows nothing about her. And of course Felicity will have a really bad awakening when she finds out that James used her all along and plans to do so again (as we saw at the end of this episode).



I would not call it spineless - after all Oliver also told Thea that things were not her fault all the time and sometimes I am not sure he does not see Felicity as his sister or student. Same with Diggle. Both of them never saw Felicity as someone equal in the sense of maturity and experience. It seems to me it is difficult not to go down the road of self-blame and loosing the ability to function (like Laurel did when she started to drink because she blamed herself for Tommy's death) and instead learn from one's mistakes. So far Felicity has a tendency (like Laurel did) to go the former path and it seems to me that Oliver and Diggle try to prevent that, because they need Felicity to function.

As to someone someday asking Felicity about ARGUS and holding just a "hacktivist" the way they did: I would LOVE it if Lyla did that. She is after all the one Felicity hurt most, both by putting Alena's word over hers and by planting a wedge not only between ARGUS and team Arrow but also between Lyla and her husband.





But yes, I agree. Felicity should face consequences and learn from them.

Fair enough points, but honestly, if she hasn't matured after five years, she's not going to without some pretty harsh knocks, and at this point, the only way that's gonna happen is if her 'protectors' (Dig and Oliver) realize they're turning her into a snowflake and stop coddling her, or at least stop reassuring her when she's confronted with her mistakes.

On the Lyla front: would love that, but TBH, Lyla should've arrested her at the end of 5x20, at the very least.

[Freawaru]

Fair enough points, but honestly, if she hasn't matured after five years, she's not going to without some pretty harsh knocks,

Five years in hell - worked wonders for Oliver and he had been an almost hopeless case, too ! I would not mind that, but frankly I doubt that they will do it. I doubt the Felicity fans would like it as they seem to think she is perfect already, and the Felicity haters would not watch it anyway. But some harsh knocks, yes, I would like that.

and at this point, the only way that's gonna happen is if her 'protectors' (Dig and Oliver) realize they're turning her into a snowflake and stop coddling her, or at least stop reassuring her when she's confronted with her mistakes.

I agree. Maybe some advice from Slade regarding difficult students ?

On the Lyla front: would love that, but TBH, Lyla should've arrested her at the end of 5x20, at the very least.

Yes, but I think Lyla thinks she can use Felicity better when she works for Team Arrow than when she rots in a cell. Guess it is the same logic Waller used regarding The Hood. Basically Oliver did work on the same side as Waller, so she just let him do it.

[Freawaru]

Another observation. Was it just me or did Oliver's voice sound very soft when he spoke with Slade? I wondered about it because of Oliver's tone I would never have guessed it was Slade on the phone.