Ben Percy and Juan Ferreyra about the Rebirth comics versus the TV adaptation...

[evaba]

^^^ replying to the two posts above me.

It sounds like some Arrow fans wants their cake and to eat it too. They can't go on and on about how the comic and the TV show is two different things, and then ***** about how the comics aren't following the same direction the TV show is.

I actually agree that comics and TV shows should be separate things. They're adaptations, and will occasionally take some inspiration from each other. But ultimately they have separate canon story-lines and characters that has nothing to do with each other.
I actually see the Arrow characters as completely different characters from the ones in the comics. They may share the same names, but the similarities end there.

Amarice brings up a interesting point about the olicity shippers. Can they truly be called true fans of Felicity if they can't even like her on her own without being with a man at all?
It's like Felicity can't even stand on her own as a character without being propped up by romantic sub-plots, according to them. There's something really problematic about that.

It's the same odd and problematic disregard for Felicity Smoak as an independent character that lies behind the oliciter claim that the season four ratings went down when Oliver and Felicity broke up. Now, to me this has always seemed like an inflated claim, because it's based on the presumption that the audience at large (which is what the Nielsen households are supposed to represent) are Olicity shippers, whose only/main incentive for watching an action/adventure show about Green Arrow is his romance with his hacker partner. Even if we disregard the fact that a sizeable portion of the online fandom considers the Olicity relationship/romance to be the LEAST interesting/engaging aspect of the show, it is very difficult to prove that Felicity's romance with Oliver is SO important to the audience at large that it will make hundreds of thousands of casual viewers drop the show when they're no longer a couple.

IF Felicity Smoak is such a superbly written and acted character as her superfans claim she is, she should be able to stand on her own two legs, rather than being defined by her role as Green Arrow's/Oliver's Beloved and Endgame, shouldn't she? I mean, with the amount glorification of her character that some of her fans indulge in ("Felicity Smoak is a Superhero", "the Team wouldn't exist without Felicity", "Felicity is the "heart and soul of Arrow" etc. etc.), she doesn't need to be Oliver's Love Interest in order to be a significant part of the show.

There is a strange dichotomy in the Olicity fandom, in the sense that her fans put Felicity on such a pedestal as an independent heroine, while still judging the quality and appeal of the show almost solely on the basis of whether Felicity is romantically attached to Oliver or not, or the amount of interaction between the two characters. If this wasn't the case, why were they incessantly complaining about the lack of Olicity on the producers' timelines or on Stephen's FB page in S5? I mean, it's not that Felicity didn't get screen time or storylines in season five....she certainly got more than OTHER supporting female characters, like Thea or Dinah. Furthermore, the writers kept dropping hints about how special Felicity is to Oliver all through the season (lingering glances, Oliver and Felicity being "Mom"&"Dad" to the newbies etc.), a strategy which culminated in the clumsy in-show shipping and the flashback sex (as well as the finale kiss) that we saw in the concluding episodes.

[Aurora Moon]

I just thought of something that might explain their odd behavior towards Felicity. What if they're basically using her as an audience stand-in so that the fans can project themselves though her? This way they get to have this awesome romance with the handsome character by living though felicity vivaciously.
So that's why they only care about the olicity, and don't really care about Felicity as a character herself.

I mean... one of the marks of a mary sue is the fact that the writer or audience can project themselves into the story though her. It's basically wish fulfillment with a character stand-in. That's the reason why any fans of a mary sue story actually don't care that the mary sue character isn't a very well defined character or doesn't have an actual personality at all.
Take Bella Swan in the twilight series. She doesn't have any actual personality to speak of, and the author deliberately wrote her that way so that the reader would be able to project herself into Bella's role. and give the main character her own characteristics as she was reading the story.

So if people actually dared to flesh out Felicity into a well rounded character who wasn't defined by the relationships she was in, then that would break the mary sue/wish fulfillment spell. So to speak.

[BkWurm1]

Ben Percy is the one desperately trying to reassure his 30,000 readers that he doesn't watch the show and won't be influenced by it. He got called a liar when the poster rightly pointed out that Diggle is from Arrow, so no matter how he spins it, his comic masterpiece IS influenced by Arrow. And so was the inclusion of Tommy Merlyn and likely the addition of a sister where there had never been one before and going back a couple runs, getting flashbacks with his mother Moira when usually his parents are long dead.

Now he can blame Twitter for not being a great medium to include caveats, but Percy is the one that chose to respond AGAIN to critics. He's the one, along with the artist that are so absurdly offended at the idea that the show could at all creep into their comics. More than anything it's the thin skinned dude bro attitude that I find hilarious. MUST PROTECT COMICS!

On one hand they act like they are afraid of catching cooties and on the other, they made a whole issue showcasing lovers frolicking in the sea at sunset. But that's ok. Cause it's "canon" I guess they are never responsible for anything they put in their comic run if it ever happened before in someone else's, lol.

[Halberdier17]

Diggle and Emiko (Oliver's sister) are both from Jeff Lemire's run on Green Arrow which was the first well received run in the New 52. Rebirth takes place in the same continuity of the New 52 so he has to include things that were popular from the other runs in his current run since it is the same continuity.

Felicity was introduced in Andrew Kreisberg and Ben Sokolowski and that run was hated by a lot of people. Maybe if they took over before Jeff Lemire it might have been better received because Lemire's run was so well received and everything before it wasn't.

[BkWurm1]

I'm not even talking Felicity, I'm talking Arrow. Percy can spin it that he just inherited certain well received story aspects, but doesn't stop his comic from being influenced by Arrow and avowals otherwise are disingenuous or at least really weak. He's already backtracked on it, now claiming he never said he wasn't influenced by Arrow, just that he wasn't forced to watch or forced to include stuff. Not sure why he made such a fuss about it anyway. Who exactly did he need to reassure?

[Haggard01]

I'm not even talking Felicity, I'm talking Arrow. Percy can spin it that he just inherited certain well received story aspects, but doesn't stop his comic from being influenced by Arrow and avowals otherwise are disingenuous or at least really weak. He's already backtracked on it, now claiming he never said he wasn't influenced by Arrow, just that he wasn't forced to watch or forced to include stuff. Not sure why he made such a fuss about it anyway. Who exactly did he need to reassure?

I'm on Bkwurm1's side with this

Percy can spin it however he wants but that doesn't disprove the fact he's already backtracked and is now basically just lying through his teeth.

Who he needed to reassure are the overzelot comic book fans on Twitter who can't stand the possible thought of the "Arrow TV show disease" infecting the show since after all to them the show is one of the worst things in Green Arrow's history for how much it has disrespected the comics or not followed them.

Personally I find this whole thing to be kind of well ridiculous. Really for Percy he dug himself this hole he's now in.

[evaba]

Diggle and Emiko (Oliver's sister) are both from Jeff Lemire's run on Green Arrow which was the first well received run in the New 52. Rebirth takes place in the same continuity of the New 52 so he has to include things that were popular from the other runs in his current run since it is the same continuity.

Felicity was introduced in Andrew Kreisberg and Ben Sokolowski and that run was hated by a lot of people. Maybe if they took over before Jeff Lemire it might have been better received because Lemire's run was so well received and everything before it wasn't.

You're right about both Diggle and Felicity (who was portrayed as a professional assassin with no romantic connections to Oliver in the failed Kreisberg/Sokolowski run): they are quite different from their television counterparts. As someone said about the comic book Diggle:

Diggle in the comic is nothing like Arrow Diggle anyway. He has better and more important things to do than cheerlead a ship

So, even if Percy's Rebirth comics incorporated Diggle in the story, he is treated as an independent character, rather than as some third wheel to Olicity, or as someone whose main role in is to prop Olicity and praise Felicity. Comic book Diggle doesn't have to spout lines like "Felicity is one of the most badass and intelligent women in the world" or claim that Felicity's "superpower is compassion". Nor does he have to appear in scenes where his main role is to beam at his two lovebirds, or "give them the room" so that they can gaze longingly at each other while violins are playing in the background.

And since some posters here have no qualms about belittling real life people (Ben Percy), I might as well add that David Ramsey's constant promotion of Olicity and the so-called "Original Team" at various conventions is regarded as somewhat self-serving and embarrassing by many non-oliciters. The sad thing is that DR seems unaware that many online fans do not consider #OTA or the Olicity romance as SO essential that they will be enthused when hearing him single out those aspects of the show at cons or in various interviews.

As for Ben Percy, I think that his stance towards the entitled oliciters who keep pestering him about the lack of Felicity in the Rebirth comics is a refreshing change when it comes to how the Olicity Social Media Fandom is treated by various people connected to the show or to the GA comics. I know that each fanbase will exert pressure on the writers/actors etc to get what they want, but I sometimes get the feeling that the shipper fandom is especially "proactive" when it comes to reminding writers, actors, reviewers etc. about what they can or cannot say about their faves. For example, I don't think any other "Arrow" fandom has ever "blacklisted" or conducted campaigns against web site owners etc. because they don't praise their faves enough.

I would even say that it's actually kind of demeaning how certain actors/writers etc. act as if they are more or less forced to pay tribute to Felicity/Olicity in order to appease their twitter/tumblr fanbase, in a way that is not required when it comes to other characters or relationships. I don't blame these actors and writers though, seeing how a newbie writer was recently reprimanded by Olicity fans for LIKING a tweet, or how those actors/writers etc. who don't join the "Olicity is the greatest ship ever" bandwagon are treated by some members of the shipper fandom.

For example, one of EBR's close friends was recently attacked both on twitter and on Instagram because she had posted a video that allegedly made fun of one of those IMHO awkward "we're madly in love with each other" poses that EBR and SA were prompted to make by some Heroes and Villains convention attendees. The hardcore Olicity/Stemily fans were really cruel to EBR's friend, calling her "thirsty", "a leech" etc. and generally treated her with the disdain and mocking they usually reserve for Katie Cassidy or Cassandra Jean.The friend apologized profusely, ensuring the online oliciters who attacked her that "she loves Olicity". To me, dramas such as these (which are quite frequent) are a sign of the toxicity of parts of the "Arrow" fandom. I guess I just don't understand how the very same fans who adopt a (sometimes thinly veiled) derisive and mocking attitude towards some actresses/spouses etc. associated with "Arrow" at the same time can demand that fans etc. should treated Felicity/EBR with the outmost respect ....lest they will be accused of "misogyny" and "hate". As far as I'm concered neither Felicity nor EBR is any more "special" or "untouchable" than any other character/actor. If some folks can dispute Katie's acting skills or question her "acting choices" on social media, I (or any online reviewer) can express my opinion concerning Emily's IMHO stilted and near-amateur level dramatic acting without being accused of being a "hater". I mean, the views expressed by EBR detractors are not any different from the views expressed by the KC (SA etc) detractors.....


As for Ben Percy, I'd say that he has no obligation whatsoever to explain or excuse the absence of Felicity Smoak in the Rebirth comics, since "the comics are a completely different thing from the television adaptation". If comic book readers are uninterested in Felicity Smoak there is no reason to include her in the Rebirth comics. I'm sure the many Olicity fans who celebrated Laurel's disappearance from the television adaptation can understand this......

[BkWurm1]

I guess I just don't understand how the very same fans who adopt a (sometimes thinly veiled) derisive and mocking attitude towards some actresses/spouses etc. associated with "Arrow" at the same time can demand that fans etc. should treated Felicity/EBR with the outmost respect ....lest they will be accused of "misogyny" and "hate".

And I don't understand why you insist on equating a few cranks with the entire fandom, a few posters who I've yet to ever run across in any of my interactions.

And I still am puzzled what Felicity has to do with Percy getting all defensive about making sure everyone knows he's not being forced to take stuff from the show. Like everyone knows, she's not in the comics. The people hounding Percy had to have been the comics dudes, not happy until they had a sacred oath out of him.

[evaba]

=BkWurm1;8177878]And I don't understand why you insist on equating a few cranks with the entire fandom, a few posters who I've yet to ever run across in any of my interactions.

I guess we read with different eyes, but there are a few oliciter-dominated forums (some on which you yourself participate) which IMHO often cross the line when it comes to how some actors (not CHARACTERS, nota bene) are treated or talked about. Some of your fellow oliciters fans may call Ksite "a cesspool", but I have never seen actors treated with the same (thinly veiled) derision on any of the Ksite forums. But maybe it all depends on which side of the fandom you belong to? I mean, the "Arrow" fandom has become so divided that what seems normal or acceptable among the members of one fanbase may appear as "cattiness", "hate", "slander", "mocking" and "derision" in the eyes of those who don't belong to the same particular "in group"?

[BkWurm1]

but I have never seen actors treated with the same (thinly veiled) derision on any of the Ksite forums

No, just posters. And to be clear, while I have seen in in the forums, (and if you go back to the Smallville boards, they were a nightmare for anyone that didn't follow the company line), I'm specifically referring to the comments sections of Green Arrow Tv. I personally know what I'm getting into on the forums so when lines have been crossed, I don't go tattling.

[Haggard01]

And I still am puzzled what Felicity has to do with Percy getting all defensive about making sure everyone knows he's not being forced to take stuff from the show. Like everyone knows, she's not in the comics. The people hounding Percy had to have been the comics dudes, not happy until they had a sacred oath out of him.

Because in this case it actually is a Felcity fan. I checked the person's Twitter and only got a few scrolls down but between nearly every post being solid Felcity/EBR and the person's avatar being Felcity, so it's pretty clear to connect the dots.

Now that being said, I can see the comic people hounding him as well but in this case it's not one.

[BkWurm1]

I know the latest thing was from a Felicity fan calling Percy on it after he said basically he wasn't influenced by the show but what I haven't been able to track is what prompted the initial postings. The one where he said he'd never been asked to make the comics like the show and ended with "Take that, internet conspiracy theorists!"

It seems to me that the conspiracy theories about him having to conform to the show wouldn't make sense coming from Olicity fans since they would be the ones that clearly see he's going in a different direction than the show. It was only later when he was trying to distance himself it seemed from the show that a Felicity fan said he was lying about the show influencing his comic. So what were the internet conspiracy theorists trying to claim? And Why?

[evaba]

No, just posters. And to be clear, while I have seen in in the forums, (and if you go back to the Smallville boards, they were a nightmare for anyone that didn't follow the company line), I'm specifically referring to the comments sections of Green Arrow Tv.

Since you were a member if the "Smallville" fandom, I'm sure that you are aware that the members Television Without Pity SV forum were notorious for being intolerant and exclusionary against anyone who dared to question THEIR party line of Chloe/Chlark/Allison Mack admiration or their Lois/Clois/Erica Durance trashing. In fact, the SV discussion forums were just as divided as the "Arrow" fandom forums are right now, with each fanbase accusing the other of "group think" and exclusion/mocking of anyone who dares to challenge the prevailing opinions, whether it is the "Felicity/Olicity/OTA/EBR is the best thing that's ever happened to Arrow" company line or the reddit "comic book F-boys" company line.

If there was more tolerance and less group think, previously.tv wouldn't be made up of 99% hardcore Felicity/Olicity/OTA/EBR fans (I know ONE poster there who is a LL/KC fan, and I admire her thick skin and stamina!) and reddit wouldn't be so emphatically anti-Olicity. But I guess it's easier to spot the bias, intolerance and "company line" of the other side than it is to acknowledge the same negative qualities among your own.

[BkWurm1]

Since you were a member if the "Smallville" fandom, I'm sure that you are aware that the members Television Without Pity SV forum were notorious for being intolerant and exclusionary against anyone who dared to question THEIR party line of Chloe/Chlark/Allison Mack admiration or their Lois/Clois/Erica Durance trashing. In fact, the SV discussion forums were just as divided as the "Arrow" fandom forums are right now, with each fanbase accusing the other of "group think" and exclusion/mocking of anyone who dares to challenge the prevailing opinions, whether it is the "Felicity/Olicity/OTA/EBR is the best thing that's ever happened to Arrow" company line or the reddit "comic book F-boys" company line.

If there was more tolerance and less group think, previously.tv wouldn't be made up of 99% hardcore Felicity/Olicity/OTA/EBR fans (I know ONE poster there who is a LL/KC fan, and I admire her thick skin and stamina!) and reddit wouldn't be so emphatically anti-Olicity. But I guess it's easier to spot the bias, intolerance and "company line" of the other side than it is to acknowledge the same negative qualities among your own.

There were plenty of safe havens at TWoP where Lois, Clois, Lana and Clana lovers could be where no one disturbed them. It was when people invaded the Chloe or Chlark or Chlois threads and started board on board attacks did they get kicked out by the mods. I'm not apologizing for people never bothering to read the rules of the forum. The only ones that considered TWoP intolerant or exclusionary where the ones not following the rules. I got dinged just like everyone else when I crossed lines. I guess the difference is I learned not to repeat those mistakes. Not everyone did.

And we have 2 LL/KC fans on the Previously boards. And like em or lump em, they are always around.

[evaba]

There were plenty of safe havens at TWoP where Lois, Clois, Lana and Clana lovers could be where no one disturbed them. It was when people invaded the Chloe or Chlark or Chlois threads and started board on board attacks did they get kicked out by the mods. I'm not apologizing for people never bothering to read the rules of the forum. The only ones that considered TWoP intolerant or exclusionary where the ones not following the rules. I got dinged just like everyone else when I crossed lines. I guess the difference is I learned not to repeat those mistakes. Not everyone did.

I wasn’t thinking of posters who break forum rules when I mentioned intolerance and exclusionary modes of behavior, but more of a general atmosphere or ”group think” that dissuades those who hold a differing opinion from even entering the discussions. I have chatted with quite a few fans who didn’t adhere to the TWoP SV forum ”party line” back in the day, and they’ve told me that the TWoP board was generally regarded as the premier gathering place for hardcore Chloe/Chlark/Chlois fans, who had little tolerance for dissenting voices (even if they followed the forum guidelines). Many SV fans also found the TWoP moderation quite odd and one-sided at times, in the sense that it was allowed to deride and near-slander actors (e.g. Erica Durance) without being reprimanded, while "picking fights" with other members was apparently such a major offense that it would result in a ban.

I kinda doubt that the TWoP SV forum would have gotten such a bad rep if the ONLY people who found anything wrong with the TWoP atmosphere/attitude/moderation were the ones who didn't "follow the rules" (while the Chloe/Chlark/Chlois peeps were presumably paragons of good will, courtesy and respect when discussing characters, actors and fellow fans). Maybe it's again a question of which side you're on? I mean, you describe the Ksite forum with exactly the same words that many folks I know would use to describe the TWoP forum....

As for the ”safe heavens” you speak about, I went through the TWoP archives before they closed down, and I sure didn’t spot many threads where Lois/Clois/Clana fans expressed their POV or protested when the dominant clique crossed the lines of actor criticism (and there were quite a few such instances). TBH, to ME the regulars on that board all seemed to adhere to the same Chloe/Chlark/Chlois party line, to the point that it seemed even more of an echo chamber than the much maligned ”Arrow” reddit forum. And that was kind of my point: intolerance isn’t only about forum rules or regulations, it’s about a general forum atmosphere that dissuades anyone with a dissenting opinion from even participating in the discussions. But since we obviously have differing viewpoints on the TWoP (and almost everything else it seems), I’ll stop here.

And we have 2 LL/KC fans on the Previously boards. And like em or lump em, they are always around.

So, it’s more like a 98% dominance of Felicity/Olicity/OTA/EBR fans then, rather than 99%! I’d say that these TWO posters are just as tenacious as you are on the Ksite ”Arrow” forum, in their wish to present/put forth a POV that differs from the mainstream. Given this, I presume that you admire their tenacity in promoting and defending a character/actress that very few of the other forum members seem to like or hold in any esteem whatsoever, while still being courteous and aware of forum rules (just like you are, BTW).