Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Into The Speed Force?"

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I think as fans we want some balance. Yes, we don't want to see Barry beat himself up for fallout that shouldn't be on him. On the flip side, they shouldn't gloss over his more cataclysmic screw ups just because he had good intentions and didn't mean to mess up other people's lives as a result. Maybe he's done his penance re: Cisco (it may speak more to Cisco's willingness not to hold a bitter grudge), but with Flashpoint it looks like he'll "get away with it" now that we've learned the Speed Force said they allowed it. Taking this out of the equation it still begs the question: Who is Barry to think he can and should alter time, when it so obviously has consequences that he may not know of and may not be able to repair.

    Realistically, the show can't have a hero that is completely broken and beyond redemption. But they also can't have a hero who gets a pass on even questionable or repugnant deeds because, well, he is the hero. I'm not convinced they have achieved the balance with Barry. The idea of him getting off relatively scot-free for Flashpoint doesn't sit well with me, and now the Speed Force has largely cleared the decks for him to be well on his way to doing that. The SF taking some ownership still doesn't erase the fact that Barry knew better and still did it. It's not that we want Barry to be punished forever, it's that we want a hero to own up to his mistakes and act accordingly not to repeat them. They're pitching that he is owning up to them, I'm not sure I'm sold on that yet.

    As for his changing or improving his behaviour as a result, I'm definitely not seeing much evidence of it. Maybe Barry going on a break with Iris is a sign of Flashpoint and Savitar fallout coming home to roost, maybe not.

    His willingness to defy the Speed Force one day to rescue Jay from paying for his and Wally's mistakes doesn't sound like someone who has learned his lesson, never mind modifying his behaviour as a result.

    Comment


    • #17
      Letting Jay take Wally's place was little more than a cop-out. It let's Barry off the hook. It also shows us Barry's priorities. Jay and Wally are both Flashes. Why was Wally being in the speed force something that had to be corrected then and there but Jay being trapped isn't? Because the sneaking suspicion I have is that Barry is simply closer to Wally. Once again, Barry gets what he wants at someone else's expense.

      One of the few redeeming tracks they've taken this season was when Barry learned that he doesn't have to do everything himself. He realized that Wally might be able to save Iris, and was willing to impart some of his knowledge on Wally to make him a better hero. Now, the speed force tells him that's wrong? It's like the show itself has no concept of what it's doing.

      Honestly, I'm fed up with this dreck. I have a thought... Barry has powers. Wally has powers. Jesse has powers. Caitlin has powers. Cisco has powers. Iris is the one who is going to die. And for some reason it has to be all on Barry to save her?

      How about this... How about we give Iris the means to save herself? How about instead of treating her like a brain-dead damsel in distress whose life has no meaning outside of Prince Barry, how about the show treat her like a real human being. You're coming to kill me, Savitar? Bleep that. I'm going to be ready for your butt. I'm going to have Cisco make me a freeze gun. I'm going to wear some kind of anti-speedster vest. I'm going to have syringes of that garbage they injected Zoom with last year strapped across my chest. I might even try to re-create the accident that gave Wally his powers so I can be a speedster, too. That'll shock the heck out of Savitar. I'm not weeping in the corner and waiting for death to come. It's 2017. Damsel this, you piece of crap.

      Where's that? ^

      Instead of the show wasting our time with the secrets, the forced drama, characters acting like morons, the guilt trips, and the back and forth nonsense with Barry being great but not-so-great... how about they just shoot the damn ball already!

      Comment


      • #18
        Regarding Wally being in the Speed Force, that's all on him, imo. Barry deserves no blame for that, no matter how much the ending of last week's episode had him act guilt ridden. Wally is an adult and he decided it was for the best to confront Savitar on his own even though he was in over his head. And lest we forget that earlier in last week's episode, Barry specifically warned him about keeping stuff to himself. An advice that he ignored. So Barry didn't need to go into the Speed Force, much less take Wally's place. Jay sacrifices himself for Wally's sake, basically. Not Barry's. The Speed Force's messages were mixed, but I did agree with them that it wasn't Barry's job to replace Wally. Of course it wasn't Jay's job either. I still don't understand why there needs to be a noble speedster serving a sentence in that position. All the while, the SF uses Black Flash as its thug. I got some serious "Messed up AI-Jor El" vibes from the Speed Force this week. And from what we hear, apparently future Barry built this prison? WTF?

        Anyway, as far as Barry owning up for his mistakes, I lean more towards Asteroid Mike's take that it's often easy to accuse Barry of being selfish (I've done it myself) and forget how much good this character has done or how much he has had to sacrifice. And unfortunately, the show often tends to focus on his mistakes to create drama around the character. Hell, I believe Barry has said "It's my fault" more times this season than Clark did in most Smallville seasons, and that says a lot! At the same time, I get where people are coming from when they want to see Barry held accountable his mistakes. The problem in a lot of these situations is that there can be no punishment. I said this at the start of the season, but how do you "punish" Barry for Flashpoint? The only thing that makes sense to me is the SF taking away his powers because he abused them. But the show never went there. All we could hope was that he learned his lesson. And he seemed to do that until he decided to change the future (which, again, is someone else's past!). That's when I threw my hands up in the air and stopped expecting them to get Barry's character right. It's a lost cause, simply because this show no longer cares about characterizations. I'm willing to bet that next season Wally and Jesse will keep doing moronic things out of petulance, Iris will still be at Star Labs spinning her wheels and waiting to be saved and Barry will be re-learning his lessons.

        Comment


        • #19
          Like I said, The Flash's theme for season 3 seems to be "Barry, actions have consequences so learn from them." A good theme and a good moral to teach and all and he should feel bad for doing certain things. But continuing to throw past incidents, criticisms and deaths at him every other episode gets redundant and played out, moreso if they're undeserved criticisms as I stated earlier.

          Then again I'm not sure if all of this is just another part of Barry's overall story arc or the writers sticking him in situations to teach him a lesson without entirely thinking things through.

          Originally posted by President_Luthor
          His willingness to defy the Speed Force one day to rescue Jay from paying for his and Wally's mistakes doesn't sound like someone who has learned his lesson, never mind modifying his behaviour as a result.
          That wouldn't bug me if Barry defied the speed force and pulled Jay out, based solely on the fact that Jay doesn't deserve to be there.

          Comment


          • #20
            Ah man, I hope the SF doesn't take a page from SV Jor-El's school of mentoring.

            While I would love to see Iris go all badass and seize the day without needing saving, or at the extreme even needing Barry, I don't think the show will go there. She's the lead's primary love interest and in this universe, it means you're only as useful in support of the lead's story needs. I had a sliver of hope when she was the one who called off the engagement because Barry was motivated by fear and the meta default need to "protect" her. Well that evaporated, and Iris is back to pining for Barry's unattainable love, even though Barry might have called for a break because he rightly feels he needs to keep his own house in order before daring to involve someone else (maybe I'm being too generous ). But, yeah, the break could also be a transparent move to stir up WestAllen drama.

            Now that the SF gave him a get out of jail card on Flashpoint, I guess we have to go along with it. The SF essentially became Barry's "sin-eater" for Flashpoint, even though there would be no Flashpoint if not for Barry's choices and deeds.

            In OffscreenVille, we can only hope in future that Batman hold him accountable or at least makes him do suitable penance until he exhibits a better balance between having powers and using them wisely/responsibly -- maybe keep him off the JL main roster or a spell with the Teen Titans.

            "Future Barry: But I'm an adult!!!

            Batman: -- with the emotional maturity of a 15 year old boy. When you're done emoji-ing Iris, Beast Boy could use your help ...

            Future Barry: Sweet! What is is -- we're tangling with Deathstroke? The Calculator? Trigon?

            Batman: Even better. Head lice. Beast Boy's got a bad infestation ... and guess who's batting clean-up?

            Future Barry: This is all about Flashpoint, right?

            Batman: You reap what you sow ... and well, Beast Boy's fur reaped plenty of those little devils. And tell Wally that if the Bat Boat isn't spotless by dinner, I'll have his Earth-3 privileges revoked. Geez, your team in Central City coddled your butts for far too long.

            Future Barry: Look, my bad, okay. Flashpoint was a bad call, I get it. In my defence, SF said they allowed it so I'm only "half" to blame now. That means something, right?

            Batman: Head lice. Beast Boy. Now! *takes away his phone, rolls eyes at screen full of emojis*

            Barry: *picking out Beast Boy's considerable head lice* Can't believe I didn't make the JL roster. And worse -- he took my phone! What a meanie.

            Beast Boy: Yep. You do sound like a 15 year old boy. Bet you regret covering Bieber's "Baby" in the musical crossover now, eh."

            Barry: it was one episode. And I killed it too.

            Beast Boy: Yeah, well, you better start killing more of my head lice or Batman will have you emptying the potty aboard the Bat Boat. Wally gave him lip and now he's scooping out the Dark Knight's sh!#. You two will get with the program soon enough.

            Barry: I should never, ever have gone back in time ....."

            Comment


            • #21
              Backward Galaxy's idea has some merit to it. I would love it if the show did a plot twist where Iris saved herself instead of being a damsel in distress. Come on, Iris needs that.

              I mean, Lana Lang and other love interests on CW got to have their own moments where they kicked ass even just for a few seconds. I remember a scene in the early seasons where Lana Lang was being abducted by some FOTW yet again. But she pulled some self-defense moves on him and managed to escape. It showed us that even though Lana Lang was obviously a damsel in distress often when the plot called for it, she still knew how to defend herself. After all in a town like Smallville you kind of needed to know how to protect yourself. :P

              And I didn't even realize how similar the speedforce guys were to the Jor-el AI until you pointed it out. Yikes...

              Comment


              • #22
                I gave 'Into The Speed Force' an 8. It was a good episode in we get 2 plots. The first plot was Barry going into the speed force to get Wally back, while the second plot was Jessie Quick versus Savitar. We finally learn that Savitar can get hurt. I has to wonder how the final battle against Savitar will turn out.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by President_Luthor
                  Wow this ep had a LOT of melodrama, and even within the Speed Force -- which in this ep is known as Guilt Trip Central. It was good though to see past characters that Barry didn't save because they weren't named Iris. And the brief reminder of temporal consequences - welcome back, Time Wraith.

                  It think it's grown tiresome to hear about Barry learning his lesson, he's learned his lesson now, etc. He's been singing that tune for nearly three years. And maybe Barry choosing not to get back with Iris is supposed to indicate he has. Hate to say it, it's all too familiar. Has he really learned? The proof of learning his lesson is applying said lessons to his current behaviour going forward. To apply lessons to his current behaviour, in case this point was missed. Ring any bells, SV fans. Clark was given a very long leash, inexplicably, when he repeated mistakes during his journey -- lessons not learned practically up to his final lap. It's been happening to Barry.

                  Too many speedsters, and I do wish Jesse well. Elsewhere. And Barry saves Wally from, frankly, the dude's own bone-headedness and ego. And Jay gets thrown under the bus to save those two doofuses from their mistakes? The Speed Force may be doing them all an injustice on the surface ... but really the only one who doesn't deserve what they got was Jay. I don't know which guest said it - maybe Snart - but you reap what you sow. And Barry sowed a lot. It's just the collection agency Consequences Inc. coming to collect. And Barry is waaay past due. The series trying to draw a line between changing the past or future is a semantics game. He is altering time. Period. This has blowback. Maybe he knows this now, or he feels he can still dodge consequences. After almost three years ... shouldn't he know better by now?

                  WestAllen has been under the radar for much of the season (dull maybe, but background noise, where it should have stayed) -- but they sure didn't waste time making up for it these last few weeks. The Flash may go down as the Berlantiverse series with the most melodrama this season, barring some excess on SG its closest rival on the angst front this year.
                  It definitely rings a bell as a Smallville fan. The speed force was right when it said he says one thing and does another, which is something Clark did a lot too. And like Clark, almost everything Barry seems to do is the wrong thing. he really show know better and I hope by season 4 he has finally learned his lesson. It's time to also stop oscillating between dangerous overconfidence and crippling self doubt.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Overall I liked this episode and gave it an 8 despite its flaws. Don't get Jay replacing Wally or why a speedster needs to take another's place.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I don't know what to say. I'm just not feeling this whole Savitar thing. Three big bad speedsters is too many, and this "save Iris" plot has not done a single character any favors. The show is so wrapped up in this story that I hardly have any impression that The Flash does the city any good at all.

                      I don't like this version of the Speed Force. Nothing it says or does makes any sense.

                      That last scene was like something from Arrow during its worst days as a soap opera. Speaking of, I've liked Arrow more than The Flash this season, which was inconceivable to me two years ago.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by nate-dog1701d
                        I don't know what to say. I'm just not feeling this whole Savitar thing. Three big bad speedsters is too many, and this "save Iris" plot has not done a single character any favors. The show is so wrapped up in this story that I hardly have any impression that The Flash does the city any good at all.

                        I don't like this version of the Speed Force. Nothing it says or does makes any sense.

                        That last scene was like something from Arrow during its worst days as a soap opera. Speaking of, I've liked Arrow more than The Flash this season, which was inconceivable to me two years ago.
                        They wanted to have their cake and eat it too by having too many speedsters in the lab. Then they pulled a Jor-El and conveniently wisked away or put out of commission anyone that could help Barry.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X
                        😀
                        🥰
                        🤢
                        😎
                        😡
                        👍
                        👎