The new character Tina Boland

[evaba]

For a ptsd plagued character story season 1 was a decent start although Frank Castle did a better job in a lot less time to convey a much more complex pyschological condition.

It's a bit unfair to compare the much more raw and "real" (for the lack of a better word!) portrayal of a man ravaged by PTSD on "Daredevil" with the "slick youth-oriented night time soap" approach/portrayal that we got on "Arrow". Don't get me wrong, I have a soft spot for the classic night time soaps, so I'm just referring to the different storytelling styles. Also keep in mind that the Netflix Marvel show writing/acting is in a whole 'nother league than the "Arrow" writing/acting. The thing that impressed me with the Frank Castle storyline was that the writers/directors weren't afraid to give him long, almost theatrical monologue-style scenes....e.g. the graveyard scene with Matt, where he talks for six minutes while Matt listens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYiDrnQQlk

You need a good script and serious acting chops to pull off that kind of a scene. Give this, I think that it was good that the writers/producers choose to let Oliver be more of a stoic, who kept his feelings bottled up, and only occasionally acted out or revealed his real feelings. I personally think Stephen's acting was better in season one, maybe because he got to share scenes with more accomplished veteran actors like Susanna and Paul B. For example, he did a good job in revealing his inner torment in the polygraph scene with Laurel and Quentin.

[DoubleDevil]

It's a bit unfair to compare the much more raw and "real" (for the lack of a better word!) portrayal of a man ravaged by PTSD on "Daredevil" with the "slick youth-oriented night time soap" approach/portrayal that we got on "Arrow". Don't get me wrong, I have a soft spot for the classic night time soaps, so I'm just referring to the different storytelling styles. Also keep in mind that the Netflix Marvel show writing/acting is in a whole 'nother league than the "Arrow" writing/acting. The thing that impressed me with the Frank Castle storyline was that the writers/directors weren't afraid to give him long, almost theatrical monologue-style scenes....e.g. the graveyard scene with Matt, where he talks for six minutes while Matt listens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYiDrnQQlk

You need a good script and serious acting chops to pull off that kind of a scene. Give this, I think that it was good that the writers/producers choose to let Oliver be more of a stoic, who kept his feelings bottled up, and only occasionally acted out or revealed his real feelings. I personally think Stephen's acting was better in season one, maybe because he got to share scenes with more accomplished veteran actors like Susanna and Paul B. For example, he did a good job in revealing his inner torment in the polygraph scene with Laurel and Quentin.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Season 2 is often seen as good or better than season 1, it's also probably my favorite season, but there's a decline in the quality that can be seen as early as season 2. We know Arrow could produce good quality if they could remember how to write a story and invest more in their actors, or at least step up their demand on the actors they have. We know Stephen and David can up their game, often it seems they're pulled down by those less skilled and/or talented so surely they have the skills needed to pull of decent quality on that front. The stories aren't bad, some are even ripped off of classic comic storylines so the quality core is there, they just need to adjust and refine. It's not like they're inventing the wheel, they're just redesigning a new rim. Yet on both of these key points it seems like quality is sacrificed for eye candy or SOMETHING the showrunners believe their audience wants. The only way I can think of to let them know they're wrong is by not supporting their decisions, but that's my personal decision.

[Backward Galaxy]

^^^ That graveyard scene was incredible. He put on an acting clinic and all he was doing was sitting there.

[evaba]

^^^ That graveyard scene was incredible. He put on an acting clinic and all he was doing was sitting there.

Seriously, that scene could be used in an acting masterclass! All fiction needs a suspension of disbelief, but when an actor so totally immerses himself in his role that it feels so real that you start crying (which I actually did when watching that scene) it's magic IMHO. Another reason why the graveyard scene (and the whole Frank Castle storyline, e.g. his outburst in the court room) was so special is that these kinds of scenes are pretty rare in today's television. It's as if writers and directors think that we have such a short attention span that they have to cut the script into short segments of conversation or action and tell their stories at a fast pace, and hence they avoid this kind of static scenes with a lone guy pouring his heart out....although such scenes often have more essence and more emotional impact on the viewer.

I don't know if I can make myself understood, but if you watch older series, it is quite apparent that the scenes take longer and that the pace is slower....sometimes annoyingly so, if you're used to modern-day storytelling! I haven't studied the Marvel Netflix series enough to know if the more theatrical approach is a common trait for all of them, but the Frank Castle scenes were outstanding in the sense that they really gave the actors room to develop their characters through the dialogue and character interaction. Of course, you need an actor of John Bernthal's caliber to be able to pull this off, and at this point I don't think any of the "Arrow" actors (except maybe Paul Blackthorne) could perform such a monologue in a non-cringey manner....

[DoubleDevil]

Seriously, that scene could be used in an acting masterclass! All fiction needs a suspension of disbelief, but when an actor so totally immerses himself in his role that it feels so real that you start crying (which I actually did when watching that scene) it's magic IMHO.

I've watched that scene multiple times (2nd and 3rd viewings of the show, reaction videos and clip excerpts) and have started tearing up almost every time. It is a true sign of quality when viewers get so emotionally invested that they loose themselves in such scenes. Now I brought Frank Castle into the discussion but not to say Arrow needs to be Daredevil rather that Arrow can (we've all seen they can) and should do better.

[Amarice]

I know I'm alone here, but I actually consider season 1 of "Arrow" to be the best. While I love Quentin's and the Arrow's cooperation in season 2, they were some Because of the Reasons things that are masked only by the intensity of the action/outcome (Slade's motivation for the revenge - srsly). Not to mention that I find procedural approach to be perfect in shows like this. I simply don't want to watch guy with a bow trying to stop a nuclear attack.

Not much to add here about Punisher - the part of the season 2 of "Daredevil" that focused on his story was excellent. Graveyard and courtroom scenes were two that you just remember and which stay with you. I'm really looking forward to Punisher finally having his own show - I'm a fan of the character for a long time.

To tell the truth I don't remember "Arrow" moving me to the brink of tears (I rarely cry when I'm watching live action - but I'm first to cry when I'm watching animated films - no idea how it works). There are, however, scenes that were close - Ollie and his family, and especially the first scene with Oliver and Thea. "I knew, I knew you're alive." Also his first meeting with Mom. Also some scenes between Quentin and Oliver. But in fact among the actors that currently are in "Arrow" I think only Paul Blackthorne really stands out. Every time he mentions Laurel I feel really bad for him. For living in this universe, where his daughters keeps dying and coming back to life. Or not if Plot Demands.

[canaryalive]

Not that I have any hard evidence nor do I have any incentive to find any but I'd say most of the hate Laurel received came from female viewers. Male viewers hating Tina I seriously believe will be because they feel she doesn't match what they believe is comicbook canon for the character and not because the show has a strong female lead or supporting role. Unless of course she goes militant feminist.

I guess you think mostly women hated Laurel, because of Olicity. But not only women believe me! You can make a research if you want. Male viewers hate on female characters a lot, especially when these characters are involved in relationships drama. A lot of hate for the looks too.

[DoubleDevil]

I guess you think mostly women hated Laurel, because of Olicity. But not only women believe me! You can make a research if you want. Male viewers hate on female characters a lot, especially when these characters are involved in relationships drama. A lot of hate for the looks too.

Of course there are male idiots (and there always will be) that hate women because they're women and there are guys so vain and insecure about their appearance that they'll shame anybody, male or female, for their looks but those are not typical male traits. Also, rude, deragatory and/or insulting commentary doesn't equal hate, that's why I'm against the idea of “hate speech“ because what one person deems hateful somebody else may not. Disrespectful possibly, but not hateful. A lot of younger males have been raised to believe masculanity is something toxic and they should be ashamed of so there are no doubt quite a few feminine males who actually enjoy relationship dramas and the more typical personal shaming and backstabbing performed by women, but again it's not something typical of men. As for the hate for women in relationship dramas, men typically don't enjoy relationship dramas therefore they're not going to enjoy men or women in those situations, the men are usually given more than just the relationship therefore the female gets the brunt of that hate.

[evaba]

I know I'm alone here, but I actually consider season 1 of "Arrow" to be the best.

You're not alone! Season one is my favourite season as well, probably because everything was new and fresh, and there were so many interesting angles/themes to explore: Oliver's origin story on the island, his embarking on the mission while trying to adjust to life in Starling city and renewing his relationships with family and friends, his budding friendship with Diggle etc. etc.. There was also a real sense of danger, since Quentin was hounding the Hood so relentlessly (although everyone knew that Oliver wouldn't be caught for real, since that would end the series!)...as well as the double life aspect, and the constant danger of being revealed and exposed to friends and family. If we add that the main actors were considerably more skilled and experienced than the ones who get the most screen time nowadays, and that the production values were much better, I think that there is a pretty even competition between seasons one and two (which had many virtues as well). There has been a downward spiral since season three as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think that there is much the writers/TPTB can do at this point, no matter how much they try. There are series that get better with time, or keep a consistently good quality, but the CW Berlanti shows don't belong to that category IMHO.

[Amarice]

You're not alone! Season one is my favourite season as well, probably because everything was new and fresh, and there were so many interesting angles/themes to explore: Oliver's origin story on the island, his embarking on the mission while trying to adjust to life in Starling city and renewing his relationships with family and friends, his budding friendship with Diggle etc. etc.. There was also a real sense of danger, since Quentin was hounding the Hood so relentlessly (although everyone knew that Oliver wouldn't be caught for real, since that would end the series!)...as well as the double life aspect, and the constant danger of being revealed and exposed to friends and family. If we add that the main actors were considerably more skilled and experienced than the ones who get the most screen time nowadays, and that the production values were much better, I think that there is a pretty even competition between seasons one and two (which had many virtues as well). There has been a downward spiral since season three as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think that there is much the writers/TPTB can do at this point, no matter how much they try. There are series that get better with time, or keep a consistently good quality, but the CW Berlanti shows don't belong to that category IMHO.

There was also no considerable amount of fanservice pushed into the show. As much as I enjoy season 5 and I find it in some aspect close to early themes established in the show, it simply doesn't have the same edge as season 1 or even season 2. There are slim chances that Ollie's life will get more complicated again (add to danger presented by Prometheus, SCPD being after him again and Susan blackmailing that she'll reveal what he was doing in Russia), but a part of me would want Prometheus to never pull down that mask, because I'm afraid that with all the mystery gone, the explanation they'll come up with about his motives will be done poorly.

When I remember myself the scene with Ollie sitting alone in the dark foundry, crushed after he didn't manage to save Derek Reston in 1x06, or when he can't bring himself to go back into action in 1x10 after being beaten up by the Dark Archer, and compare it how massive writing failure is dealing with the aftermatch of Billy's death I feel really disappointed. Especially that they showed that they have some means to create angst (Ollie's return to the foundry in 5x09 was really heartwrenching). I expected to see some impact on Oliver after this tragic death and especially Felicity, what I got was... nothing.

To give "Arrow" and Flarrowverse some justice a lot of shows gets worse in their third season. In "Arrow's" case it was a combination of factors. That's why I'm worried about "Daredevil" season 3, because season 2 has also huge plotholes and didn't came together as nicely as season 1 (identical situation as in "Arrow" case).

Okay, maybe for a change I write something about Tina/Dinah. So far I can say that I like her, and I see only one crucial problem here. They didn't knew how to get Laurel to the place Dinah is so they killed off Laurel and created a new character with the skillset and character they needed. And it was not even planned, because I would bet that they didn't knew they will introduce another Black Canary when they were getting rid of Laurel. Rather sloppy. No sense to compare her to Black Siren, although so far Dinah haven't done anything that Black Siren couldn't do. I hope that she will get some more storylines in the second part of the season, because IMO she has a potential. I would really hate to be in the team just because Every Team Needs a Chick trope.