Arrow's five year plan and the possibility of how they went wrong?

[Haggard01]

So with season 5 upcoming, I’ve been doing some thinking about Arrow over all.

Rewatched some interview stuff from season 1 among read up on press release stuff over the years to get a better sense of what I’m going to be talking about. What I am going to be discussing is Arrow in over arcing plan, is what I guess you might call it and how things possibly getting changed messed that up leading us to certain problems.

Now, when did all this begin? Not in season 3 but actually back in season 2. Because two of the showrunners where going to be leaving later that year for The Flash, or atleast that’s my theory.

That’s why Oliver’s choice to not kill seemed so to be a 180 is originally that was supposed to be played out across five seasons. We see Oliver gradually change in methods, which was hinted at in season 1 a few times. One reason why Oliver killed Darhk in 4x23 and they made it such a focal point say compared to Oliver killing Ras a Ghul in 3x23 then really hammering the fact of The Hood coming back in season 5.

Because Oliver was never really supposed to come to completely end killing until season 5.

Also Oliver’s sudden happy state at the end of season 3 and really into season 4, happened to quickly as well. (Now, I’m not talking about the running off with Feclity and all that soap opera stuff. Just ditch that from this topic.)

What I’m referring to is Oliver seemingly ditching Yao Fei’s hood and Shado’s dragon tattoo with seemingly no longer having PTSD like he did in season 4 was not supposed to happen until season 5.

The reason for that? Two words and they are Oliver’s flashbacks.

You go listen to stuff from the early seasons you always hear about this five-year plan and the plan of bringing the flashbacks to a close by having Oliver’s finale flashback is getting rescued by the fishing boat, making the first five seasons like book ends.

Sure the showrunners are bringing some of that back again in talking about it, to a degree and now I’ll get into my point.

Oliver’s giving up Yao Fei’s hood, the dragon tattoo and healing from his PTSD is because the flashbacks where supposed to be showing Oliver’s decent into The Hood. Consequently the full circle thing of Oliver in the flashbacks becomes The Hood while in the present day Oliver becomes the Green Arrow or at least based off a classic version of the comic character.

Putting aside the poor story quality and everything else, that’s one possibly reason why the flashbacks, especially in season 4 have felt like there’s no importance. Because Oliver’s already got his journey "done" meaning no tie in to the past.

Oliver’s line in 3x23 was supposed to be in 5x23 and in a far more fitting reason.

So in season 5 they are not just having to try and bring viewers back, plus trying to get back to their “grounded roots” after Flash and Legends of Tomorrow. They also need to put this “five-year plan” back onto the table after 4 years of butchering it.

For the stuff of like Laurel, Feclity etc. well I can only really speculate and I have the feeling you guys will discuss that plenty in the comments below.

So, what are you guys thoughts?

[JDBentz]

I think you've brought up some good points here, Haggard. I've said it before: I signed on to watch Oliver's five year journey in both the past and the present. That's why, despite my problems with the show, I'm sticking around until the end of the season. Well, that, and my little quirk of "if I've seen at least two seasons of a show I have to keep going, even when it turns to crap." There's a REASON I've never bothered watching something like Days of Our Lives.... Well, aside from it being apparently focused on melodrama.

Oliver did, for all intents and purposes, seem to 'become' the Green Arrow by the end of Season 2 since he was 'no longer killing'. The inconsistencies in the past two seasons, including the points where Oliver has killed (in Nanda Parbat in 3x15 and when he was being Al Sah-Him, killing Ra's, and killing Darhk) have been them apparently trying reset it, but still focusing too heavily on the wrong things. And, if I'm honest, the romantic angst was only a small part of that. Since it got a lot of screen-time and focus from the writers and showrunners when interacting with fans, its gotten the onus of the blame. But there were other problems. And it all stems from something that has happened with this show since the beginning, which even the showrunners admit to doing:

They try to do too much, too fast, and screw themselves over royally every damned time. They've even admitted this in interviews. The Olicity romance is just one of SEVERAL problems they've had with rushing things and putting too much into the storyline. For example: them building up the Suicide Squad without knowing for sure it was going to be allowed. Oliver's mentorship of Roy. Oliver's dalliances with BOTH Lance sisters, McKenna, Helena... Season 3 the rushing was in trying to build the reason for Oliver to face off with Malcolm, and they came up with a crap storyline because they decided they wanted Malcolm to be 'more sympathetic' and a 'dark father figure' for both Oliver and Thea. They can't quite seem to grasp the idea of having the bad guys be bad guys.

As for stuff like Laurel, Felicity, etc.? Personally, that's taken up more than enough threads, IMO. There are plenty of other reasons "Arrow" has gone to crap. Olicity, Laurel's death, and Felicity's inconsistent behavior are only prevalent because that's been the focus of the fanbase's praise and/or ire when interacting with the showrunners.

[Haggard01]

I think you've brought up some good points here, Haggard. I've said it before: I signed on to watch Oliver's five year journey in both the past and the present. That's why, despite my problems with the show, I'm sticking around until the end of the season. Well, that, and my little quirk of "if I've seen at least two seasons of a show I have to keep going, even when it turns to crap." There's a REASON I've never bothered watching something like Days of Our Lives.... Well, aside from it being apparently focused on melodrama.

Oliver did, for all intents and purposes, seem to 'become' the Green Arrow by the end of Season 2 since he was 'no longer killing'. The inconsistencies in the past two seasons, including the points where Oliver has killed (in Nanda Parbat in 3x15 and when he was being Al Sah-Him, killing Ra's, and killing Darhk) have been them apparently trying reset it, but still focusing too heavily on the wrong things. And, if I'm honest, the romantic angst was only a small part of that. Since it got a lot of screen-time and focus from the writers and showrunners when interacting with fans, its gotten the onus of the blame. But there were other problems. And it all stems from something that has happened with this show since the beginning, which even the showrunners admit to doing:

They try to do too much, too fast, and screw themselves over royally every damned time. They've even admitted this in interviews. The Olicity romance is just one of SEVERAL problems they've had with rushing things and putting too much into the storyline. For example: them building up the Suicide Squad without knowing for sure it was going to be allowed. Oliver's mentorship of Roy. Oliver's dalliances with BOTH Lance sisters, McKenna, Helena... Season 3 the rushing was in trying to build the reason for Oliver to face off with Malcolm, and they came up with a crap storyline because they decided they wanted Malcolm to be 'more sympathetic' and a 'dark father figure' for both Oliver and Thea. They can't quite seem to grasp the idea of having the bad guys be bad guys.

As for stuff like Laurel, Felicity, etc.? Personally, that's taken up more than enough threads, IMO. There are plenty of other reasons "Arrow" has gone to crap. Olicity, Laurel's death, and Felicity's inconsistent behavior are only prevalent because that's been the focus of the fanbase's praise and/or ire when interacting with the showrunners.

Thanks.

I'm the same on why I'm sticking around of wanting to finish out season 5 since I signed up to watch Oliver's five year journey in both timelines.

Yeah Oliver did seem to "become Green Arrow" by the end of season 2 since he went no killing. I would agree with the romantic angle just is one small factor but it's the most discussed due to fan interactions.

Agreed on the showrunners doing to much, to fast and screwing themselves over and good examples of all the stuff they rushed/and or put to much into the storyline. Just like for example The Count could have been a season villain instead they used him up and was done with the guy. They brought in a second "Count" but didn't use him much either.

Very true on how they can't seem to have the bad guys just be bad guys.

Yep on the stuff of Feclity, Laurel, etc on other threads has been discussed already. I'm not sure why I put that in there, now that I think about it. Could be from writing this up when I was tired or just trying to put something in to encourage some discussion.

[DoubleDevil]

BvS, Suicide Squad, Arrow, LoT... I'd say DC in general thinks they need to play catch up and cram everything with to many stories instead of dragging things out by focusing on fewer stories at once and thereby being able to give viewers a higher quality product to watch.

BvS had what? BvS of course, Death of Superman and building the Justice League compared to Captain America which had Civil War. The building of the Avengers wasn't crammed into any of the stand alone films. Suicide Squad was LoT that ran out of time AND focused to much on the mega star Will Smith. Now I enjoyed Will Smith and Deadshot but I would've enjoyed getting a bit more of Killer Croc or Diablo.

[Haggard01]

BvS, Suicide Squad, Arrow, LoT... I'd say DC in general thinks they need to play catch up and cram everything with to many stories instead of dragging things out by focusing on fewer stories at once and thereby being able to give viewers a higher quality product to watch.

BvS had what? BvS of course, Death of Superman and building the Justice League compared to Captain America which had Civil War. The building of the Avengers wasn't crammed into any of the stand alone films. Suicide Squad was LoT that ran out of time AND focused to much on the mega star Will Smith. Now I enjoyed Will Smith and Deadshot but I would've enjoyed getting a bit more of Killer Croc or Diablo.

Good post. Which yea DC has a massive problem with moving stuff to fast and it really decreases the quality level.

I'm not the biggest fan of Marvel's stuff and that's just from some of the stuff is a little to cheesy or just like Iron Man 2 speaks for itself. Films like Iron Man, Captain America and Winter Solider I enjoy.

Anyway, Marvel does have enough sense to slow their stuff down and is a little smarter in that area.

[Amarice]

It's a combination of factors. We could speak about a consistency if the show had one main showrunner who would keep everything in order and had a clear outline of the plan to realize thematically. I haven't seen much of "Supernatural" as of yet, but I've heard from the fans of this show that first five seasons keep together quite nicely. In theory "Arrow" also should keep together that long (it seemed that the five years of flashbacks presenting Oliver's way to become the vigilante hero would map out the path in the presence, as there were meant to be pararell). But well, all of it flew out of the window at some point. We've talked already in other topics about the influence of social media - but it's only a half of the story. Cramming the universe with other shows took its toll on "Arrow" as well. But there is also another factor.

Nowadays there is a lot of shows which turn into crap in season 3. One of the reasons seem to be that at season 1 stage there is a lot of fresh ideas to realize. Also you have to win the viewers, so you put there everything to attract them and you're also more careful about keeping things at least a bit "real" (things like Oliver actually ending up in a hospital after the Dark Archer beat him up pretty badly). Then at season 2 the easiest way to do things is to make 180 turn. If you compare season 1 to season 2 you'll notice that pattern. For example how Lances sympathies look like. Suddenly from an ally Laurel turns into the Arrow's enemy. Quentin - the other way around. I love the episode "Broken Dolls", but Lance's sudden change of heart when it comes to his views of the Arrow was - when one thinks about that a bit longer - was very sudden. But at least they've cooperated together a few times in season 1, so it's not as crappy as with other 180 degree changes of views, which later on happen in the show on the daily basis, in the case of some characters two or three times on the span of one episode (!). Everyone acts as if they were patients of a psychiatric hospital and I'm asking where is Doctor Pressnall when she is needed to provide some professional observation? That technique works only up to the moment it doesn't - that would be season 3. Plotlines are all over the place, because at that point you're out of the ideas. You repeat stuff or you make it uncessary overcomplicated because simple, good solutions were used in every possible configuration. Also at the stage of season 3 most shows rely on sentiment of the viewers and assume that people will follow it no matter what. What when one thinks about that is a bit stupid, because there is a lot of competition in every category/genre.

They've changed the show from procedural to serialized one, and at this point we see the consequences - it's the format which works well in short closed tv shows - True Detective, Daredevil, Jessica Jones. Not in a show realized with much smaller budged which has 23 episodes to fill. There is only limited amount of times you can use a similar plotline. How many times the "main" story can be based on trying to stop some Bad Guy who wants to destroy the city? How many someone close to Oliver can be abducted, put in danger or killed to create a short-lasting drama? Is their aim to finish "Arrow" with a scene of Oliver standing on a cementary full of the graves of people he didn't manage to save?

Also a modern trend now with many shows and films - the plot becomes irrevelant. At season 3/4 stage would you be truly able to tell what "Arrow" was about? Because it was clearly not a modern version Robin Hood story any more.

Sometimes I think that the people responsible for creating those modern shows should look at the old ones, like Disney's "Zorro", "Columbo" or even "Bonanza". Or "Robin of Sherwood", since we are speaking about a hooded guy with a bow. Surely, the quality of episodes varied greatly, but I've never got bored with watching Zorro saving little guys, Columbo trying to nail down a murderer, Cartwrights having various adventures and Robin Hood protecting Wickham's villagers from evil Sheriff and Guy of Gisbourne. Similarly I could watch all day Oliver fighting for little guys, beating the crap out of the bad guys, repairing arrows in the Arrowcave and meeting with Quentin on the rooftops. Ooops, it seems that I'm not the target of "Arrow" any more. Well, fortunately Benjamin Percy's "Green Arrow" run fulfills all the tropes I've ever wished for to see in GA story. It's really nice feeling when your headcanons find reflection in the source material.

[BkWurm1]

There's a lot of issues that the show has had but one of the biggest things to derail Arrow IMO was The Flash.

Skipping the debate over if MG should be in charge of a show, I think we all could agree that he does better when he isn't doing it on his own. And I think that he was left to do season three on his own did mean that he was unchecked when it came to all his "gotcha moments" and "twists" and just the overall pace of the season.

I also blame the hype over The Flash for the distraction of trying to get another spin off going. I don't for a second believe they weren't trying to make that happen from the moment Brandon Routh was approached. And I think they wrote to the detriment of Arrow to support their plans. I liked Ray and the Atom when he was allowed to interact and serve the Arrow's story but when it was just about setting up his character, it messed with the flow and tone.

Then come season four the need to embrace magic and metahumans and go all out to set up the spin off meant that storylines were severely weakened even further. We've all talked about ways that taking Dahrk's magic out of the final stretch of episodes would have wildly improved the strength of the storytelling. It was the introduction of The Flash that led to breaking the ground rules of Arrow. How can the show remain real, grounded and gritty if half human sharks walk around?

I think Arrow could have stuck to it's guns and let Flash have its out of this word stuff but it seems to me that it was more important to the show runners to establish and support the new world of The Flash than keep Arrow doing what it did best. It was IMO an overall shift in the mindset of how they were going to do the show that hurt it the most.

I also think that for all their talk of a five year plan, they didn't really have five years of flashbacks planned out. I think season four proved that.

[DoubleDevil]

There's a lot of issues that the show has had but one of the biggest things to derail Arrow IMO was The Flash.

Skipping the debate over if MG should be in charge of a show, I think we all could agree that he does better when he isn't doing it on his own. And I think that he was left to do season three on his own did mean that he was unchecked when it came to all his "gotcha moments" and "twists" and just the overall pace of the season.

I also blame the hype over The Flash for the distraction of trying to get another spin off going. I don't for a second believe they weren't trying to make that happen from the moment Brandon Routh was approached. And I think they wrote to the detriment of Arrow to support their plans. I liked Ray and the Atom when he was allowed to interact and serve the Arrow's story but when it was just about setting up his character, it messed with the flow and tone.

Then come season four the need to embrace magic and metahumans and go all out to set up the spin off meant that storylines were severely weakened even further. We've all talked about ways that taking Dahrk's magic out of the final stretch of episodes would have wildly improved the strength of the storytelling. It was the introduction of The Flash that led to breaking the ground rules of Arrow. How can the show remain real, grounded and gritty if half human sharks walk around?

I think Arrow could have stuck to it's guns and let Flash have its out of this word stuff but it seems to me that it was more important to the show runners to establish and support the new world of The Flash than keep Arrow doing what it did best. It was IMO an overall shift in the mindset of how they were going to do the show that hurt it the most.

I also think that for all their talk of a five year plan, they didn't really have five years of flashbacks planned out. I think season four proved that.

I actually agree with you here. It's something that slightly worries me with Daredevil even though the mystical and supernatural was hinted at and the showrunners knew from the very start it would be part the show. We'll see in Season 3 how well Marvel and Netflix can incorporate these elements in a “grounded“ show.

[President_Luthor]

The price Arrow paid for accommodating the more fantastical elements aka metas, magic, time travel etc. (represented by Flash initially, then LoT and now with SG the door will be kicked wide open now) has long been a soapbox issue for me. Arrow should have stuck to its guns and kept these elements in check or at least minimized its impact as long as possible until they knew how it would impact the Arrowverse. Lots of 'cart before the horse' stuff, where they just threw all that in and its less-positive blowback on Arrow be damned.

I'm sure some fans out there would argue that Arrow was a superhero show and the fantastical stuff is by default assumed to exist and have an effect on it. This is too broad of a generalization. Looking at early seasons Arrow, even when they allowed themselves 'super serum' stuff like mirakuru it was portrayed as more like a performance-enhancing drug aka more science-based than anything mystical or magical. For the longest time, Arrow downplayed those elements we take for granted in a superhero universe.

When Flash and his super-powered world became part of the Arrowverse it was akin to someone shoving their foot into Arrow's more "grounded" door and keeping it ajar. It became easier and easier for TPTB to shrug and say: you know, why not bring in Ra's and all the mystical stuff associated with it, let's do time travel, bring in more metas, etc.?

If Arrow did have even a thumbnail sketch of how its five-year-arc would play out, the impression is that they veered away from it or even discarded it the moment they latched onto ramping up Flash and then LoT and incorporating all of their de facto fantastical elements into their universe. No one can dispute that Arrow was required to do much of the heavy lifting to launch Barry and his world when he didn't even have his own series yet. (A BIG debt Barry owes to Arrow, and arguably a debt that you can't put a price on). My view? Arrow has gotten burned on the exchange rate as the seasons went on. I think I've said plenty about LoT already. Fine, they wanted to double down on Flash and then LoT and open up the DC universe on TV. They didn't seem to ask first: at what price, cost to Arrow?

A little more planning on their part could have made it a more seamless adjustment for the Arrowverse. Arrow got screwed on this front in order to accommodate his TV cousins, and Flash and LoT must share a chunk of responsibility here. I'm hoping this time, Barry will be bearing the brunt of the heat for transitioning SG into their world.

Arrow may have issues of its own re: plotting, characterization and (to Flash fans) no one is saying Flash is responsible for these, but I think Arrow being compelled to share a more fantastical world once Flash entered the fray has been a brewing issue for some time. And it continued to be an issue the moment the Arrowverse became the Flarrowverse.

I'd argue Arrow continues to pay a price for shifting from its more grounded, gritty, realistic world to a universe where things that were once thought of as impossible (or at least improbable) -- the magic, metas, time travel -- are accepted as norms. Perhaps S5 will be trying to scale back some of these negative effects and go back to its "realistic" roots, too early to say if they will succeed or not.

[evaba]

I actually agree with you here. It's something that slightly worries me with Daredevil even though the mystical and supernatural was hinted at and the showrunners knew from the very start it would be part the show. We'll see in Season 3 how well Marvel and Netflix can incorporate these elements in a “grounded“ show.

I think that there already are some supernatural (or at least unrealistic) elements in "Daredevil", such as Matt's powers, or Elektra's possible resurrection from the dead. The same applies to Luke Cage...unlike Oliver (who is a normal human being) he is indestructible (well, except by some special bullets!) and has a superhuman strength. So, the mystical or fantastic element is already there, it's just that these heroes move and act in a setting that is mostly realistic. What happened with "Arrow" is that it went overboard with the mystical and grandiose, e.g. the resurrections in the Lazarus Pit or Dahrk wanting the nuke the whole world! It just became ludicrous and unbelievable, and it felt as too much of a deviation from the more realistic feel of the previous seasons.

I think the Marvel shows will take a much more sophisticated approach, or at least ground their mysticism in some common tropes, such as the existence of all-powerful clandestine Asian sects, which use some kind of magic (akin to the LoAs storyline, but better done hopefully!). Also, I think the evocation of setting (Hell's Kitchen, Harlem) is so much stronger in the Netflix shows than on "Arrow" (where the city and the citizens Oliver is supposed to protect have almost vanished!). I think the presence of a real neighbourhood, established through many outdoor shots and scenes from places where the characters drink/eat etc., is really important when it comes to creating the feeling that the story is grounded in reality. The presence of a real setting and everyday people and their activities functions as a counterbalance against the mystical or supernatural, so to speak. At least that's my feeling about the matter.

[Shelby Kent]

I think that there already are some supernatural (or at least unrealistic) elements in "Daredevil", such as Matt's powers, or Elektra's possible resurrection from the dead. The same applies to Luke Cage...unlike Oliver (who is a normal human being) he is indestructible (well, except by some special bullets!) and has a superhuman strength. So, the mystical or fantastic element is already there, it's just that these heroes move and act in a setting that is mostly realistic. What happened with "Arrow" is that it went overboard with the mystical and grandiose, e.g. the resurrections in the Lazarus Pit or Dahrk wanting the nuke the whole world! It just became ludicrous and unbelievable, and it felt as too much of a deviation from the realistic feel of the previous seasons.

I think the Marvel shows will take a much more sophisticated approach, or at least ground their mysticism in some common tropes, such as the existence of all-powerful clandestine Asian sects, which use some kind of magic (akin to the LoAs storyline, but better done hopefully!). Also, I think the evocation of setting (Hell's Kitchen, Harlem) is so much stronger in the Netflix shows than on "Arrow" (where the city and the citizens Oliver is supposed to protect have almost vanished!). I think the presence of a real neighbourhood, established through many outdoor shots and scenes from places where the characters drink/eat etc., is really important when it comes to creating the feeling that the story is grounded in reality. The presence of a real setting and everyday people and their activities functions as a counterbalance against the mystical or supernatural, so to speak. At least that's my feeling about the matter.

This nicely captures what I have felt in terms of the difference between the Netflix Marvel shows (haven't yet finished Luke Cage) versus Arrow, regarding this particular aspect of the shows, but could never find the words. Great explanation and description!

[DoubleDevil]

I think that there already are some supernatural (or at least unrealistic) elements in "Daredevil", such as Matt's powers, or Elektra's possible resurrection from the dead. The same applies to Luke Cage...unlike Oliver (who is a normal human being) he is indestructible (well, except by some special bullets!) and has a superhuman strength. So, the mystical or fantastic element is already there, it's just that these heroes move and act in a setting that is mostly realistic. What happened with "Arrow" is that it went overboard with the mystical and grandiose, e.g. the resurrections in the Lazarus Pit or Dahrk wanting the nuke the whole world! It just became ludicrous and unbelievable, and it felt as too much of a deviation from the more realistic feel of the previous seasons.

I think the Marvel shows will take a much more sophisticated approach, or at least ground their mysticism in some common tropes, such as the existence of all-powerful clandestine Asian sects, which use some kind of magic (akin to the LoAs storyline, but better done hopefully!). Also, I think the evocation of setting (Hell's Kitchen, Harlem) is so much stronger in the Netflix shows than on "Arrow" (where the city and the citizens Oliver is supposed to protect have almost vanished!). I think the presence of a real neighbourhood, established through many outdoor shots and scenes from places where the characters drink/eat etc., is really important when it comes to creating the feeling that the story is grounded in reality. The presence of a real setting and everyday people and their activities functions as a counterbalance against the mystical or supernatural, so to speak. At least that's my feeling about the matter.

Yes, up until now Netflix has done a good job of mixing the supernatural and mystical with a grounded and realistic feel, my fear (if you want to call it that) is we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Much like the Flash after Arrow and the mirakuru in season 2, Iron Fist (the next series to come out) will take things further than any of the previous shows and this fantastical element I'm sure will play a huge part in the Defenders mini-series (my prediction since DD season 1 has been the Hand will be the major conflict although it's pretty much been verified). I do have much more faith in Netflix to pull it off.

[canaryalive]

The whole story in season 4 was misplaced, I agree. It was too soon to show this progress in the character in his 4th year and the whole light hero thing was too early. The jump from the dark season 3 to the light season 4 was so drastic. And now they are reverting everything as if never happened. His progress into the light hero went to nowhere because people didn't like it and actually didn't make sense. Anyway I am happy that he is into his old self. The whole propaganda that he needs help, team and should listen to others lead to nowhere apparently.

[President_Luthor]

So, Amell didn't like S4 ...

^Some recent interviews with Amell in EW re: how he actually didn't like S4, sound like he'd agree with most fans (some selected quotes, bolding is mine):

"Amell confesses that he became frustrated with last season’s creative direction. “I put my heart and soul into every day of work and every episode, but at the same time there is a lull in any relationship where you need to have a ‘come to Jesus’ moment, so to speak,” says the actor. “That happened for me in the latter half of season 4, where I feel like there were just a few things that got lost in the shuffle, so we needed to really refocus in season 5.”

“The original vision of Arrow has been augmented and changed to support and accept and help introduce various other shows, and that is a wonderful amazing opportunity. Now that that’s done, we have to do what we do well,” says Amell. “There are things that Legends and Flash and Supergirl can do, based on the sort of more fantastical nature of their shows. But there are things that we can do that none of them can. We are a street-level crime fighting show. We’re at our best when we’re focused on those things.”

But Amell does believe Arrow has reached a crossroads. “I do really believe that this season is sort of a throw-down-the-gauntlet year for us, where we’re either going to do what we do and do it well or it’s the last year,” he says.



I think he and I are on the same page on a lot of this. They blew the doors wide open for magic last season, time travel and more metas last season in part for LoT (I'd say this attempt to rewrite Arrow's DNA began with Barry's entry into the Arrowverse) and no doubt it played some role in sidetracking Arrow from the gritty, "realistic" crime drama elements that had once defined it.

There is simply no denying that Arrow's weight lifting for the other series was a contributing factor in this. Not the only factor obviously, but I have to laugh at any lingering notion out there that accommodating these more fantastical elements have zero impact on Arrow. It did. While I love the expanded Flarrowverse in general terms, there are things about it that did have blowback on the series that once had been its most grounded.

Add to this the doubling down on Olicity and the haphazard handling of Laurel/BC's death and all of this combined to give us the meh S4 we got. From this and other interviews, it sounds like Amell was pushing for the back-to-basics theme to the point where if they didn't do a course correction, S5 would be it.

Arrow and Sons of Anarchy: redemption and the protagonist

MG also makes an observation about the theme of redemption and how, for Oliver, there could be similarities to Jax's journey re: redemption on Sons of Anarchy (which I LOVE!) and Oliver's own endgame. I'll give him a point for appreciating SOA.

[FYI, if you're a fan of SOA, please weigh in on this, PM me, etc. I might just start a new thread about it -- but if it's only here, just don't talk about the series finale (No need to spoil it for potential future fans of Jax and Co.) Letters from John Teller could be very painful for Jax to read, set things off with Clay, etc.]

[canaryalive]

Your analyses are very good. Oliver should have stopped killing and become happy in the end of season 5. Ditching Shado's tattoo and hood was a mistake. Rushing his development into lighter hero just to reverse him back is also a mistake.
I think most of the future decisions after season 1, were made because of fans' demands.
The creators had one year plan and that's it, also their plan was only about Oliver Queen. They never intended to bring Sara back or to make Laurel a vigilante in season 1.
What happens after season 1 seems a decision made because fans wanted it. Fans didn't like Oliver killing - so he stops killing.
Fans wanted Black Canary and they bring in someone who can step up to the game and live up to the expectations of the raised bar.
Fans wanted lighter show - so in season 4 we've got lighter show.
When this creators stop listening to what the fans want the show will be good again.
About the romance - I am tired of all the circle jerking between Laurel and Felicity. A realistic thing is that person moves on, he moved on from Laurel, he is moving on from Felicity and those two romances should never come back.
If they can't make up their mind of him having one woman in his life, can he at least be a playboy. This - I love Felicity, no now I dream of loving Laurel, is disturbing.