Are Legends & Arrow not written with comic book fans in mind?

[KSiteTV]

I know a lot of people might have felt it, but Marc Guggenheim pretty much seems to have said that the comic book fans aren't who Legends & Arrow are for (I'm assuming Supergirl & Flash are thinking about us.)

Judge this quote for yourself:

My favorite fans of the shows are the people who are not comic book fans. The truth of the matter is that a wildly successful comic book today sells 80,000 copies, but 80,000 viewers does not keep any show on the air. None of these shows exist without people who are not fans of the comics. We’re not burying you in backstory and the minutiae of who these characters are.

From http://collider.com/legends-of-tomor...eim-interview/

What do you think?

[DJ Doena]

I would say it can be an advantage to not have the source material in mind. I never read US comics as a child, so I don't have a pre-set mind about how certain things should be or should be done. So there is no "This is not canon!" coming from me.

When they killed Jimmy on Smallville it wasn't bad because he was a canon character. It was bad because it was badly written and an out-of-the-blue ending for Davis (the guy who tried to commit suicide to not become Doomsday).

But sometimes even I am on the other side of the fence. Usually with book-to-movie adaptions where I know the source material by heart. Then I can be the guy claiming "That's not how it's supposed to be!".

So yes, I can understand where Marc is coming from. Especially when you consider the fact that many of these characters have reached retirement age and have been retconned in the comics over and over and over again. But when someone does it on TV? "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war!".

[Halberdier17]

If fine if it isn't exactly like the comics it would be boring if it was exactly the same.

I just think if you do an adaptation you still have to be respectful of the source material. Some of these characters have been around for over 70 years. They deserve respect for being around that long.

[Aurora Moon]

If fine if it isn't exactly like the comics it would be boring if it was exactly the same.

I just think if you do an adaptation you still have to be respectful of the source material. Some of these characters have been around for over 70 years. They deserve respect for being around that long.

^^^This.

I love creative interpretations and alternate universe takes on certain characters, etc. Take Supergirl for example. They completely changed her origin story compared to what it was in the comic series, but it worked. This is also why I don't mind the Jimmy Olsen of that universe being black, because it's basically an AU Supergirl story. Just like one of those elseworld stories.

The same with the Flash. In the comics, nobody knew who killed Barry's mother. It appeared to be a robbery break-in gone wrong to everyone. Plus at the time his parents were separated so they weren't living together, AND his father had an ironclad alibi. He was working at the time, and there was dozens of witnesses... so as an result Barry's father never got arrested, and Barry ended up living with his father. He still got into forensic science because he wanted to know who killed his mother.

Now compare that to the TV show, and you realize that there's a lot of things that are completely different... just enough to make it yet another Alternate Universe.

That's where Arrow and Legends comes in.

I don't mind Arrow being an weird Green Arrow AU, where the superhero Arrow is a serial killer with a heart of gold. I think the issue is, the TV show tries too hard to try to convince us that this guy is really the same guy from the comic series... down to the exact personality traits and everything. Just admit it's an Alternate universe take on the Green Arrow character, and it's okay. They don't have to be the same person at all. They're completely different people who just happens to share the same name as each other. If the TV runners would just admit that it's an AU very loosely based on the comics and that they're taking massive liberties because of that... then everything would be peachy keen. No need to insult the fans' intelligence.
maybe then the Arrow fans would stop freaking out over the fact that the Green Arrow comic series doesn't have Felicity in it at all. and that Black Canary is in fact Green Arrow's long-term girlfriend for over 70 years.

[costas22]

How much does a successful Marvel comic book sell? 80.000 as well? No wonder Marvel Movies went broke after they decided to stay true to their source material! Oh wait...

Fact of the matter is that comic books are the reason he has these characters to work with in the first place. And why Arrow became a hit in the first place. Try making a series about two everyday people in love called Oliver and Felicity with no Green Arrow, Dark Archer, Black Canary, Speedy, Arsenal, Ra's Al Ghul and see how many viewers it gets.

P.S. Isn't it unprofessional for the showrunner of any series to openly be talking about having "favorite fans"?

[Backward Galaxy]

I think he's right. He's not making TV shows for 80,000 people. That said, nor is it wise to tick off the people you already have in the bank before you even air. It's a balance. I find the best approach is to come up with a great story and then mine the critically acclaimed comics that fit. That's what Nolan did.

[dreamsofnever]

How much does a successful Marvel comic book sell? 80.000 as well? No wonder Marvel Movies went broke after they decided to stay true to their source material! Oh wait...

Fact of the matter is that comic books are the reason he has these characters to work with in the first place. And why Arrow became a hit in the first place. Try making a series about two everyday people in love called Oliver and Felicity with no Green Arrow, Dark Archer, Black Canary, Speedy, Arsenal, Ra's Al Ghul and see how many viewers it gets.

P.S. Isn't it unprofessional for the showrunner of any series to openly be talking about having "favorite fans"?

Well said! And ultimately, most comics fans don't want a panel by panel recreation. What we DO want is to feel like the creator in charge of a live action adaptation loves the characters and has respect for where they come from. With Arrow, Marc Guggenheim has shown pretty clearly that he resents comic fans. So at least he's being really upfront about it now?

And unprofessionalism is pretty much his middle name at this point. His Tumblr, Twitter and interviews read a lot like an internet troll trying to get attention.

I think he's right. He's not making TV shows for 80,000 people. That said, nor is it wise to tick off the people you already have in the bank before you even air. It's a balance. I find the best approach is to come up with a great story and then mine the critically acclaimed comics that fit. That's what Nolan did.

EXACTLY. Nobody is expecting him to write only to the comic fans in the audience, but it wouldn't be that hard to tell a good story while NOT pissing on your built-in fans. Aka the ones who built up buzz and promoted the show before it even aired BECAUSE of the name recognition.

Though really, I take issue with his assertion that "successful comics sell around 80,000 so there must only be 80,000 fans of the comic version of this character" because the characters of Green Arrow, Speedy, and Black Canary have been around for about 70 years, which means generations of fans who may have stopped buying comics for various reasons (cost, disillusionment with reboots, not liking the current creative team, etc) but may still be fans of the characters with preconceived ideas about what they want to see from adaptations of the characters. Not to mention fans of the animated versions of said characters. That's not to say that they will be able to please everyone nor that they need to have their show's version of the character be a carbon copy of previous versions, but an ideal would be to have a version of the character that embodies the traits that most versions share in common-traits that feel elemental to the heart of the character. With Arrow, it seems that MG took the opposite tactic and sought to strip each canon character of everything that people know and love about them in other media, in favor of glorifying his near-OC (I say near because Felicity Smoak is a thing in comics but this version shares very little with Firestorm's step-mom).

To be fair though, Arrow was dropping the ball on Black Canary, Huntress, the Blackhawks, and Oliver himself even in season one. But MG just took this to a whole new level. And season one was very clearly a love letter to certain parts of Green Arrow's comics history, whereas season 4 basically felt like a huge middle finger to comics fans.

[nate-dog1701d]

I'm fine with deviations from the source material, but I prefer when they're good.

I'm not particularly interested in direct adaptations. I want characters to be true representations, and I like seeing elements of the good stories creep in when appropriate. Respecting the past and forging ahead into new territory is the ideal. I don't think any reasonable person expects a show or movie to include every detail ever published in a comic book.

I don't know about having "favorite fans," but he's certainly right about not making the show specifically for comic fans. These beasts have to have a decently broad level of appeal. Of course, I don't think it's proven that being like the comics is necessarily contrary to mass appeal.

[KSiteTV]

I think the problem I had with it - or even with it being said out loud - is there were a lot of actions last year, particularly on Arrow, where catering to the online contingent was more important than the comic book fans. I don't feel that on the other shows, where they will throw in such random Flash characters from comics that I've never even heard of. It's weird, because Legends' best episodes last year relied a lot on comics -- I loved seeing Connor Hawke (even if he had different parents than the comics), and I loved seeing Jonah Hex. But I got a distinct feeling of "comic book fans don't matter as much as the others." Maybe that's not his intention, but that's how it's come across.

[costas22]

Well said! And ultimately, most comics fans don't want a panel by panel recreation. What we DO want is to feel like the creator in charge of a live action adaptation loves the characters and has respect for where they come from. With Arrow, Marc Guggenheim has shown pretty clearly that he resents comic fans. So at least he's being really upfront about it now?

And unprofessionalism is pretty much his middle name at this point. His Tumblr, Twitter and interviews read a lot like an internet troll trying to get attention.

Glad you mentioned the bold part. I wholeheartedly agree that the answer isn't completely recreating a comic book story on screen. After all, these shows are promoted as "adaptations". Twists and changes are most welcome as long as the source material is respected, in my opinion. Are The Flash and Supergirl direct adaptations? Of course not. But at least they respect where they came from.

The problem here is that there is no middle ground. Case in point, the Black Canary. Guggenheim's job wasn't to bring her to life and tick every canon box in order to perfectly line up with the comics. However, it also wasn't his job to treat the character like crap: Make her unlikeable for the first season and a half, marginalize her for the next 2 seasons and ultimately kill her off like a piece of meat while she's shipping Olicity with her dying breath.

At the same time, his argument about the 80.000 comic book fans is awfully silly. Arrow's pilot was watched by 4.14 million people. The Flash's pilot was watched by 4.83 million. Is he honestly implying that only 80.000 of those viewers were comic book fans? Good grief. Said this while he was doing damage control after Laurel died, but he's horrible at PR.

On that note, maybe he should be more careful when speaking about his "favorite fans". Because if, say, Felicity dies or Olicity ends permanently, I have a feeling a lot of these "favorite fans" will lash out at him more than comic book fans do.

[Majin Wilson]

so pretty much, comic book fans don't matter - because the source material is not *quote* organic *unquote* enough to put on the show. Guggs has now essentially admitted that he panders to the Olicity fandom.

[Amarice]

Every time when I think that nothing what MG says can surprise me, I come across another quote like this, which really makes me wonder how someone who completely doesn't understand what making an adaptation is was put on charge of Arrow.

I wrote this already in other topics, but I'll repeat it again. Best adaptations don't cling desperately to the source material - they respect it and translate the source material to another medium. Arrow used to be a retelling of Green Arrow stories, some changes were necessary, others added interesting elements to the story (for example giving Oliver family was IMO hitting a bullseye), other didn't pan out.

Something which has very little in common with the original story can still make a good tv show - Robin of Sherwood for example doesn't share too much with the book "Merry Adventures of Robin Hood". But still it's the story about Robin Hood. Despite different setting, different time, with new characters added, with the different background of Robins - because, as it happens, there were two Robin Hoods in that story, one taking the mantle after another. Do you see similarities here?

MG suceesed in turning an enjoyable retelling of Green Arrow story into something which is completely unwatchable. And this is the main problem he fails to see and that's why had failed this tv show. It's not bad, because it doesn't adapt specyfic story or comic universum - it's bad because it's poorly written, it's bad because everything happens Because of the Reasons, it's bad because the characters we used to like are shells of the characters they used to be - they are unlikeable and lost their individuality ever since the writers started to push them from point A to B without thinking about a logical way to bring them there.

I'm not surprised that comic books fans are not his favorites, because as it happens they demand certain quality and would like to get a compelling story. It seems the type of "fans" he prefers are those who don't care about the story itself, as long as their get their favorite paring on screen, love ferns and cheap romance drama.

[KSiteTV]

Weird thing about the comics/TV separation: Marc Guggenheim has written some REALLY GOOD comic books. I hear his current Agents of SHIELD comic is at times better than the show. I'm surprised he's not more loving and supportive of that aspect of things.

[Halberdier17]

Weird thing about the comics/TV separation: Marc Guggenheim has written some REALLY GOOD comic books. I hear his current Agents of SHIELD comic is at times better than the show. I'm surprised he's not more loving and supportive of that aspect of things.

What is weird about his comics.

On his history page when they list the comics he worked on, he deleted all of his DC books.

He only has his Marvel books listed on the comics he worked on.

[darkphoenix21]

I'm a non-comic book reader but, love these shows. I have to agree with Marc Guggenheim, he can't craft these shows with the goal to cater to 10% (for example) of audiences that know everything about these characters. Even amongst the comic book readers you can't please everyone. At the end of the day he has to make the best show that will get the most views.

The source material is a great reference point for these show (amongst other mediums) however, has the source materials ever match what has been shown in other mediums? I'm going to take a wild guess and say most of the time it's a no.