Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Genesis?"

[BkWurm1]

I've seen it mentioned twice now that "DC" denounced a relationship w/ the Arrow subreddit. While I am aware that the DCcomics subreddit -- which has no official association with DC Comics and which is merely a reddit user created discussion group with a focus on DC comics subjects -- did sever their "relationship" with the Arrow subreddit, I have not seen anything about "DC" doing so. What is this "DC" that has denounced Arrow subreddit? Can anyone provide me with details or a link discussing this? I am very curious and would like to know more

If the DC subreddit page had no official ties to DC, than I misconstrued the relationship but I do know that the page if not official, does have access that comes from DC (info, interviews, images, promotions) and they wanted it made very clear they did not support the behavior on the Arrow page. And with posts like this, it's not surprising:

(Warning, graphic language)

http://imgur.com/hErn2WA

[Shelby Kent]

Yes, the subreddits are operated by fans and any user may provide links within user-created threads to interviews, promotions, images, videos etc that are freely accessible on the web from various entities (such as CW etc), subject of course to the rules set up within each particular subreddit. The DC Comics subreddit mods did not appreciate the overally negative tone that has beset the Arrow subreddit generally since about mid-season, as many fans on Arrow subreddit have become disillusioned with the show. The action taken by the DC Comics subreddit mods was to remove their link to the Arrow subreddit on their side-bar, and the corresponding link to DC Comics subreddit has been removed accordingly from Arrow subreddit. Users are of course free to travel between the 2 subreddits as well as all other subreddits within the reddit space as each user sees fit.

[DoubleDevil]

Which somehow circles back to Felicity being held to higher standard in how she uses the company's resources?

She's invested her time, her name, her reputation, the trust both Ray and Oliver have placed in her, the responsibility she feels to the employees (and the team to cover their operation) and the city and most recently her gratitude to it for her ability to walk. You ever heard the expression more of a royalist than the king? Her investments may not have been monetary, but I don't see how they can be dismissed as without value.

We are never going to agree about any of this. I think there likely are much larger underlying beliefs that are intractable for you and I can't comprehend so I'm moving on.

So she invested her time. Quite possibly more time than Oliver and Ray yet doubtful. The only difference is the subjective value of Felicity's investment compared to Oliver and Ray. I've taken out the subjective value and simply compare who invested what. Ray may have had a larger financial investment than Oliver or vice-versa but again I'm not making a cent by cent, minute by minute comparison. Now if Felicity's time, sweat and tears built up the company from scratch THEN I'd hold it as equal to Ray and Oliver's financial investment but that's not the case. She hasn't invested anything that Ray or Oliver hasn't invested, she's invested less yet I'm to give her the same leniency because I'm holding her to a higher standard? She hasn't even met the standard I've set for Oliver and Ray so how am I holding her to a higher standard?

You claim, by your subjective opinion, that Felicity's time is more valuable than either Oliver or Ray even though it's fact that she, just like Ray and Oliver, didn't dedicate herself to the position. She didn't know the company's financial status, she didn't know what measures the board was taking to save the company and she neglected her duties for days on end searching for Ray. You disregard Oliver's attempt to compensate his father closing a factory so the employees get a fair shake yet I'm the one holding her to a higher standard. You give Felicity preferential treatment while holding Oliver and Ray to a higher standard simply to meet Felicity's, subjectively held, value.

Ray and Oliver (or the Queen family) have both invested more of their personal wealth into the company than what a private jet would cost them so if they wish to use the company jet once or twice a year privately, hell once a month, then that's something that can be forgiven.

[evaba]

I do get my hackles up with statements like "people think" or "fandom feels". Tell me what you think even if it was sparked by something you read someone else say. If you agree it becomes your opinion, but it's meaningless to me if you give me some anonymous opinion. Give me yours or don't give it to me at all. I am trained to reject the whole subject when it is framed as a general consensus since you can't know that when you yourself acknowledge there is a divide in the opinion of fandom and as you said, for every reviewer that has one issue, I can find one that thinks the opposite.

You and I have been on this forum for years, so I'm sure that you are well aware that I can express my own opionion just fine, at lenght and quite forcefully! In this thread I didn't express my own opinion, but on many other occasions I have. The problem might be that you and I have such a different view on the show that we're unable to understand each other's points of view or mode of thinking about characters and actions.

I can accept if you say you feel like the majority of fandom supports your opinion but then I also need you to accept that I don't share that opinion and it's gotten to the point where I feel like you are trying to force your opinion as fact.

As you said yourself, it's impossible to know how an amorphous mass of online fans feel about a character or certain plot developments. However, by reading social media (FB, twitter), various discussion forums, comment sections etc. you can at least get a "feel" or impression of the prevalent sentiments and opinions. I would say that my own opinion is pretty well represented in the non-shipper fandom, while the Olicity/Felicity fans seem quite happy about the current incarnation of the show. In that way I guess you and I are representative of the two main fanbases in the "Arrow" fandom: Felicity fans/Olicity shippers and everyone else, whether they are also fans of Laurel/Black Canary or not.

As for "forcing my opinion as a fact", I DO think it's a fact that a large part of the online fandom who are not Felicity fans or Olicity shippers are disappointed and dissatisfied with seasons three and four. However, this disappointment goes far beyond the irritation over Felicity and her expanded role or the (perceived) predominance and poor writing of the Olicity romance. There is an overall perception that there has been a steep decline in writing, plotting, fight choreography, cinematography and even acting (since it's hard to do a good job with stilted dialogue!) in seasons three and four. So, if we're talking about fandom sentiments, I don't think that I'm that far from the truth when I say that most of the non-shipper fans I come into contact with are not content or happy with the current direction of the show.


On the other hand, whatever I say about Felicity or Olicity (e.g. that I find their relationship boring, or bordering on co-dependent) is clearly my own feeling/interpretation of their interaction, which cannot be presented as a fact. When I make these statements I do try to qualify them by adding an "in my opinion" etc. to make it clear that I'm not stating a narrative truth. Also, if I may say so, your own posts sometimes come off as if you are stating objective and irrefutable facts about a character or storyline, especially in those posts where you critique Laurel's character portrayal. You seem to believe that if you present your opinions in a dispassionate manner (often without qualifying them with phrases that indicate that this is your own sometimes quite idiosyncratic interpretation!) and provide in depth recaps of various happenings and scenes, your opinions will become harder to refute. The problem is that your initial interpretation of the characters and their actions is no less biased and skewed than mine, or anyone else's, something that is sometimes disguised by your style of arguing. So, I would say that ALL of us could strive a little harder not to present our own personal interpretations as "facts"….

I especially refuse to bring Laurel into the subject if I'm not talking about her in conjunction to Felicity or Olicity since I don't think her character has had ANYTHING to do with Olicity in years. She's had no in story impact on how Olicity has been written pretty much ever. Laurel has never been in a love triangle with Oliver and Felicity. There is behind the scenes stuff and how characters are used and positioned that impact storylines (like how in my opinion they purposely "killed" Oliver so Laurel's intro as BC wasn't tied to him) but I don't think that means anything in discussing what's shown on screen between the characters.

I actually agree with you about Laurel and Olicity. In my opinion, the writers managed to change whatever enjoyable dynamic Oliver/Felicity had in the early seasons for the worse all by themselves in seasons three and four. So, Laurel has no part in the poor writing of the Oliver/Felicity romance, or the way the writers let it dominate the narrative. The fault lies solely with Guggenheim and his writers, whose style of romance writing resembles the Latin American and Turkish soaps that I used to watch with my late mother-in-law when we went to visit her in Greece for our summer holidays!

In earlier seasons this (typical CW?) soap opera style of writing was (in my eyes) not as dominant, maybe because so many other aspects of the story were better written and executed. However, when the hero's relationship woes seem to dominate many parts of the narrative, it becomes harder to overlook scenes such as these, which in my eyes do have a soap opera aesthetic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj1I-Sh4lB0&feature=youtu.be&t=1m18s

Now, to ME (I know you feel differently) that scene in the Clock Tower is an example of the kind of somewhat overblown romantic/dramatic scenes that "Arrow" writers seem to love, and which IMHO have just too much of everything: the melodramatic lines/delivery, the swirling strings in the background, the implication that Oliver at every stage needs a woman's advice/encouragment to be able to continue to fight...There was a similar scene with Oliver and Laurel in season two, when she convinces him to goup against Slade, which was equally high strung.

Although I like romance, I find this style of writing somewhat heavy-handed, mainly because it portrays human relationships in a manner that seems to be more dependent on how it is portrayed in cheap romance novels than on any observations about how real human beings interact with each other. And if you want to know my own personal opinion of the Oliver/Felicity relationship, it is this "fakeness" that annoys me: Guggenheim et al are not writing a relationship, they are writing a romantic fantasy, and when that fantasy seems to overtake the show as a whole, "Arrow" becomes just another romance-focused CW show, rather than a superhero show that was rather groundbreaking when it was first introduced.

I can't speak to season one but I was reading those boards in season two and I left with no intention of ever returning because I found the boards just terrible. It was MY experience that for every reasonable voice there was either a misogynistic troll trying to shout down any real discussion or someone whining about it not being close enough to the comics or enough action or someone that just wanted to comment on boobs and breasts and as far as I can tell, it's only gotten worse and more combative and dehumanizing.

As I've said, I've been on both imdb and reddit almost since the first season, and I agree with you that there are many trolls, and that the tone can be misogynistic (especially on the unmoderated boards). However, if you had stuck around, you would have found that there are many articulate and courteous regulars, who have a passion for the show and its characters, and many interesting discussions. It is true that many posters on these boards are also comic book fans (just like many Ksite posters, incidentally), but I don't understand why this should be something negative. I know that the non-comic characters that comprise 2/3 of the so-called "Original Team" (especially Felicity) are more important to you than the comic book characters or the comic book mythos, but it's still a fact that "Arrow" is based on the Green Arrow comics and its characters/rogue gallery. So, I don't think that it is odd that posters will make connections or comparisons to the comics. However, I don’t agree with you that these comparisons solely amount to “whining”…in fact, even the hardcore comic book fans are aware that “Arrow” is a live action adaption rather than a panel-for-panel re-enactment of the comics (which have gone through numerous changes themselves over the course of some seventy years!). In general, I have to say that I have actually learned a LOT about comics and the comic book fandom during my years on these lists, and it’s been a very rewarding and interesting experience.

As for your last point, I have personally not felt that the atmosphere on these boards is “de-humanizing” or combative, but maybe it’s a question of familiarity. After a while you learn to use the ignore button, and interact with those regulars you get along with/like, as in any other social situation. Furthermore, up until recently, most “Arrow” discussion forums had a diversity of opinion which IMHO has always been pretty lacking on the previously.tv forum, which is so conformist that you sometimes feel that you’ve come across a Felicity Smoak/EBR/Olicity Appreciation Society, rather than a discussion forum where all opinions about characters, actors and storylines are accepted and encouraged. I know you don’t agree with me, but that is how *I* perceive previously.tv and its posters. They’re by no means fanatics, but there is a kind of tacit agreement that Felicity is a great, well-written and essential character, that the Oliver/Felicity romance and #OTA are the hubs around which the show should evolve, and opinions which deviate from this POV are regarded as just that, i.e. as “deviant”. The forums I mentioned may not be to your taste, but at least on some of them there is more honest (and sometimes combative!) discussions and more leeway for differing opinions than I have seen on the Oliciter-dominated previously.tv forum.

You bring up a warning on PTV that was posted TWO years ago (and was always overblown and misconstrued IMO) when the antics on Reddit's board this year was so bad that DC denounced any relationship with it. Perhaps that was overblown as well, but no, nothing is going to convince me that those places are good places to go or a realistic snapshot of the fandom as a whole (let alone humanity as a whole) We'll have to agree to disagree about that.

You know, in order for the mods to use such strong words, there must have been a reaction against the content and the tone of the discussions, either from the mods themselves, or from members that DID feel there was too much Laurel/KC bashing. The fact that YOU feel it was overblown and misconstrued does not mean that others could have felt otherwise. The atitude may be different now, but *I* still feel that there is an implicit (or thinly veiled) mocking/condescending attitude towards REAL persons (i.e. Katie Cassidy) that makes *me* feel uncomfortable, even if it doesn’t bother you. Also, I'm well aware that Felicity/Olicity fans would feel just as uncomfortable on reddit....I'm just pointing out that your criticism is somewhat one-sided, since you seem to believe that there is no "group think" or conformity of opinion on previously.tv., while dismissing forums of which you have a limited experience.

Finally, it is NOT true that DC “denounced any relationship with reddit”. The “DC denounced reddit” is another one of these tropes that are circulating in the oliciter fandom, and which people seemingly accept without checking the sources. I don’t think Geoff Johns and DC Comics care enough about what happens on an “Arrow” discussion forum to intervene in this manner, just like the “Arrow” TPTB don’t intervene when it comes to those fan spaces that promote trash/actor shipping and rumor mongering about “Arrow” actors and their spouses. What happened was that the moderator of another subreddit (devoted to DC comics) said that his subreddit didn’t want to have anything to do with the subreddit devoted to the show. I know that there have been cases of posters who were harassed by other posters for their opinions, but again, this controversy has absolutely NOTHING to do with DC comics.

I think our opinions about both the show and the fandom are too divergent for us to ever agree on some matters. This post again dealt with fandom issues, but that is mostly because it was brought up in your reply. However, I’ll try to stick to the show and its characters in the future.

[BkWurm1]

So she invested her time. Quite possibly more time than Oliver and Ray yet doubtful. The only difference is the subjective value of Felicity's investment compared to Oliver and Ray. I've taken out the subjective value and simply compare who invested what. Ray may have had a larger financial investment than Oliver or vice-versa but again I'm not making a cent by cent, minute by minute comparison. Now if Felicity's time, sweat and tears built up the company from scratch THEN I'd hold it as equal to Ray and Oliver's financial investment but that's not the case. She hasn't invested anything that Ray or Oliver hasn't invested, she's invested less yet I'm to give her the same leniency because I'm holding her to a higher standard? She hasn't even met the standard I've set for Oliver and Ray so how am I holding her to a higher standard?

You claim, by your subjective opinion, that Felicity's time is more valuable than either Oliver or Ray even though it's fact that she, just like Ray and Oliver, didn't dedicate herself to the position. She didn't know the company's financial status, she didn't know what measures the board was taking to save the company and she neglected her duties for days on end searching for Ray. You disregard Oliver's attempt to compensate his father closing a factory so the employees get a fair shake yet I'm the one holding her to a higher standard. You give Felicity preferential treatment while holding Oliver and Ray to a higher standard simply to meet Felicity's, subjectively held, value.

Again, I seriously don't have a clue what you are talking about. What attempt by Oliver to compensate for his father closing a factory am I disregarding and in what context is it relevant to 3 CEO's that all used a company jet for personal use???? Two of which you offer "leniency" and one you don't because you've arbitrarily decided that only money or family pride is a relevant investment although I still don't know what that has to do with anything.

As far as I can tell it all boils down to you finding the exact same questionable actions from Ray and Oliver more ok because one had loads of money to burn and thus was able to acquire the company and the other was lucky enough to be born into the family business. But being handed the privileges AND the responsibilities - with no say in the matter - means she should be more strict in how she makes her business choices - is that about it?.

You claim, by your subjective opinion, that Felicity's time is more valuable than either Oliver or Ray even though it's fact that she, just like Ray and Oliver, didn't dedicate herself to the position.

You asked what she invested and I spelled it out. Where did I say her time is more valuable than Oliver or Ray's??

I did allude with the royalist comment that is common for people that aren't born to something to be as or more passionate to a cause as a contrast to where it was suggested that Felicity would treat PT like free money found in Vegas. Felicity doesn't have a family legacy to protect and nor did she spend a bunch of money to buy the company but Oliver never wanted to be a part of his family legacy, not until he was forced and every time he thought he found someone better qualified to deal with it, he's walked away. Ray spent money to buy the company but it was so meaningless to him that when he was done getting what he wanted from his investment, he gave it away. His monetary investment was not a sacrifice. He could still care less about it.


And given that Oliver spent weeks where he didn't go into the office and when Ray bought QC he immediately focused on making the suit (and then gave the whole company away), yeah, Felicity actually HAS spent more time working on the interest of the company. Has she also had other interests? Yes, but as you said, so did Oliver and Ray. She's the only one that even briefly focused all her attention on the company, but during all the weeks that she was also part of the team, she also was looking after the company. She may not have worked there full time until she returned to Star City, but that timeline still makes her the victor of this three way horse race. By season 2 at this time Oliver had lost the company and there's nothing to indicate that Felicity is going to lose or hand over the company to someone else in the next 24 hours (all that's left of the in show season timeline) *Clearly I jinxed it right here, but eh, still stand by my opinion.

But again, what does any of that have to do with using a company jet for personal uses for a good cause? You insist there are clear reasons why Oliver and Ray should have special consideration. I don't see it at all but oh well. Personally I don't mind that any of them did it.

[evaba]

Yes, the subreddits are operated by fans and any user may provide links within user-created threads to interviews, promotions, images, videos etc that are freely accessible on the web from various entities (such as CW etc), subject of course to the rules set up within each particular subreddit. The DC Comics subreddit mods did not appreciate the overally negative tone that has beset the Arrow subreddit generally since about mid-season, as many fans on Arrow subreddit have become disillusioned with the show. The action taken by the DC Comics subreddit mods was to remove their link to the Arrow subreddit on their side-bar, and the corresponding link to DC Comics subreddit has been removed accordingly from Arrow subreddit. Users are of course free to travel between the 2 subreddits as well as all other subreddits within the reddit space as each user sees fit.

I missed this in my reply to @BkWurm! You are absolutely right...if there was any "denunciation", it didn't come from Geoff Johns or DC comics. In fact, all it amounted to was a removal of a link. So, the (non-existent) reaction from DC comics cannot be used to prove that reddit is a disreputable or toxic forum. As you say, there is a lot of anger, disappointment and what people call *beep* posting, but as far as I know only one or two posters have complained or made charges of actual harassment. Redditors can certainly be accused of conformity of opinion, or excessive whining, but in my experience most posters maintain a modicum of respect towards each other, and towards the "Arrow" actors. The jargon may be a bit tough (probably a consequence of it being a male-dominated forum) but I've seen very little actual bullying of individual posters in reddit discussions. So, this forum is far from the Bogeyman that it is presented as in some parts of the fandom.

[DoubleDevil]

I'll step away from the discussion with a summary from my POV.

I criticize Felicity for using the company plane privately. If I criticize Felicity then I should also criticize Oliver and Ray yet I don't and therefore ask why should I? What makes the situations equal that I should allow Felicity to do something that the majority of society villifies? I'm told that she owns the company and is a CEO just like Oliver and Ray. I see a difference in the situations, Oliver (the Queen family) and Ray decided instead of buying their own planes they'd use the money to invest into the company, something above and beyond simply being a CEO, which allows my mind to grant them “special treatment“. The argument made in Felicity's defense why I should grant her special treatment as well is because she's a more competent CEO and cares about the employees. That's her job as CEO. It's nothing special nor deserving of special treatment. But she OWNS the company just like Oliver and Ray therefore she can do what she wants with it. Again, this is a behavior that is almost universally villified, why should I accept it from any of them simply because they own the company? The Queen family and Ray Palmer bought/built the company to increase their own wealth but by investing in it they secured jobs and provided some money for expansion or research & development or simply to continue production, something everyone in the company benefitted from. Yet for some still unexplained reason I'm also supposed to accept that behavior from Felicity. Maybe because she's Felicity?

Regardless, I doubt I'll ever get a satisfactory answer so I'll drop the discussion.