Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Sark Waters?"

[DoubleDevil]

Personally, what I found most interesting about season one was Oliver's friendship with Diggle and his attempts to reconnect with his family. And what I love about comics Oliver is that his team in the comics is a FAMILY. A very fractured, sometimes dysfunctional family. But I find those found family connections interesting and important to the comics version of the character (unfortunately, the TV version shares little more than a name and archery skills with the much more interesting comics counterpart, but that's another rant) so I'd like to see less focus on Oliver's love life and more focus on his other types of relationships. But then, I'm not typically interested in lone wolf hero types, so I Might be in the minority here.

While I do prefer the "lone wolf" type heroes, I do enjoy a good ensemble team when they leave out the melodrama. As much a lone wolf as Daredevil is once he dons his costume his personal life is usually with Foggy and some current love interest running around making for an interesting dynamic within the story itself. What I'd really like to see (either from DC or Marvel) would be a good duo team, I don't mean a Batman/Robin sidekick thing but actual equal partners which I was hoping for as soon as Arrow came out. Jessica Jones almost satisfied that with Luke Cage being so prominent in her series, maybe next season.

[dreamsofnever]

While I do prefer the "lone wolf" type heroes, I do enjoy a good ensemble team when they leave out the melodrama. As much a lone wolf as Daredevil is once he dons his costume his personal life is usually with Foggy and some current love interest running around making for an interesting dynamic within the story itself. What I'd really like to see (either from DC or Marvel) would be a good duo team, I don't mean a Batman/Robin sidekick thing but actual equal partners which I was hoping for as soon as Arrow came out. Jessica Jones almost satisfied that with Luke Cage being so prominent in her series, maybe next season.

I am a sucker for duos myself. It's one of the reasons that I love Green Arrow and Black Canary together in the comics. But maybe we will get that dynamic with Luke and Jessica or even Luke and Danny over on Netflix.

[Carmine-Infantino]

Personally, what I found most interesting about season one was Oliver's friendship with Diggle and his attempts to reconnect with his family. And what I love about comics Oliver is that his team in the comics is a FAMILY. A very fractured, sometimes dysfunctional family. But I find those found family connections interesting and important to the comics version of the character (unfortunately, the TV version shares little more than a name and archery skills with the much more interesting comics counterpart, but that's another rant) so I'd like to see less focus on Oliver's love life and more focus on his other types of relationships. But then, I'm not typically interested in lone wolf hero types, so I Might be in the minority here.

To clarify my position, I only want Green Arrow to be a lone wolf and operate more like Daredevil. I'm more than fine with Oliver having a family and his friendship with Diggle. For me the show jumps the shark when it gives everyone Oliver knows a mask and leather suit.

On a different thread I've suggested that if Hourman is really coming to Legends he should start out on Arrow. Before I get accused of talking out of both sides of my mouth, I only take this position because the producers have turned Arrow into a character development factory, and I think they could bring him on without having him interact with G.A. just like they did with The Atom. If somehow they did away with the team concept on Arrow, then I'm not in favor of new heroes being introduced on Arrow.

[dreamsofnever]

To clarify my position, I only want Green Arrow to be a lone wolf and operate more like Daredevil. I'm more than fine with Oliver having a family and his friendship with Diggle. For me the show jumps the shark when it gives everyone Oliver knows a mask and leather suit.

On a different thread I've suggested that if Hourman is really coming to Legends he should start out on Arrow. Before I get accused of talking out of both sides of my mouth, I only take this position because the producers have turned Arrow into a character development factory, and I think they could bring him on without having him interact with G.A. just like they did with The Atom. If somehow they did away with the team concept on Arrow, then I'm not in favor of new heroes being introduced on Arrow.

That makes sense. I wouldn't mind that, because the writers clearly don't know how to juggle so many heroes. And Arrow is definitely the new character launching pad, for better or for worse. Hour man could be an interesting addition.

[Carmine-Infantino]

@Shelby Kent:

S.K., I have an unfortunate update from the C-I home front. Our maid nyssa keeps killing our over age pool boy, m and m. It seems that they are fighting over a rather large and ugly ring that mm has. You would think being a maid an all that Nyssa would pick up after herself, but no everyday I have to find mm's body and throw it into the pool before I can take my own dip. Yesterday was the worst, I found his body right away, but it took me hours to find where she hid his head. Nyssa eventually put him back together, but when he came out of the pool his head was on backwards. The minions found this quite amusing, my wife not so much. it took all day, but we got mm straightened out and back into the pool. My question to you S.K., is I've tried to fire the whole lot, but they keep saying they belong to some league, which I've taken to mean some kind of union. Not wanting any union trouble, what do you suggest??? On the positive side Nyssa has started to wear her husband's French Maid uniform, but she keeps daggers in her stockings. So, progress ... sort of.

[Shelby Kent]

@Shelby Kent:

S.K., I have an unfortunate update from the C-I home front. Our maid nyssa keeps killing our over age pool boy, m and m. It seems that they are fighting over a rather large and ugly ring that mm has. You would think being a maid an all that Nyssa would pick up after herself, but no everyday I have to find mm's body and throw it into the pool before I can take my own dip. Yesterday was the worst, I found his body right away, but it took me hours to find where she hid his head. Nyssa eventually put him back together, but when he came out of the pool his head was on backwards. The minions found this quite amusing, my wife not so much. it took all day, but we got mm straightened out and back into the pool. My question to you S.K., is I've tried to fire the whole lot, but they keep saying they belong to some league, which I've taken to mean some kind of union. Not wanting any union trouble, what do you suggest??? On the positive side Nyssa has started to wear her husband's French Maid uniform, but she keeps daggers in her stockings. So, progress ... sort of.

Well, I am sorry to say but I believe you were just a bit too overconfident when you purchased that LP water off eBay. Now look what you've gotten your long-suffering wife into! Still, it is important that you keep the grandkids from peeing in the pool, so you do need that pool boy, MM. Try not to pick fights with Nyssa. Eh, so what if she puts MM's head on backwards some days? You know she's just going to chop it off again the next night, so it's not like we're talking about his head permanently being on backwards, now are we? And I don't see why he can't do his job with his head occasionally on backwards anyway. Remember, always look on the bright side and to the future -- tomorrow can be a better day; it's all in your mindset! Plus, you don't want to be one of those persnickety nit-picker types, making Nyssa feel like whatever she does is never good enough, else she'll chop your head off and then where will you be? Poor Mrs. Carmine-Infantino will be the one having to hoist your headless corpse into the pool -- I'm sure your vows said "for better or worse" but that's a bit much to ask of one's spouse, now isn't it? ....And finally -- unless you live in a "right to work state" -- correct, you are likely dealing with a union and I don't think you can fire the league minions; just be glad they're not asking to renegotiate benefits. But above all, here's my best piece of advice: ask yourself WWDD?** Than do that.

**what would Diggle do?

[Haggard01]

To clarify my position, I only want Green Arrow to be a lone wolf and operate more like Daredevil. I'm more than fine with Oliver having a family and his friendship with Diggle. For me the show jumps the shark when it gives everyone Oliver knows a mask and leather suit.

On a different thread I've suggested that if Hourman is really coming to Legends he should start out on Arrow. Before I get accused of talking out of both sides of my mouth, I only take this position because the producers have turned Arrow into a character development factory, and I think they could bring him on without having him interact with G.A. just like they did with The Atom. If somehow they did away with the team concept on Arrow, then I'm not in favor of new heroes being introduced on Arrow.

Considering I've seen bits of Daredevil and well consider the Netflix to be years ahead of this version of Arrow I'd be fine with that. Season 1 of Arrow was more like Daredevil than the later seasons, anyway moving on.

Completely agreed about the show having jumped the bloody shark after giving anyone Oliver knows a mask and a leather suit. I think that shark jumping moment happened when season 3 began really.

For more than one mask well let's see. I'm leaving Felicity out because while team member she is not a full time, active field member.

Season 1- was just Oliver and maybe Huntress if anyone even counts her with Diggle as back up.

Season 2- Oliver and Sara with Diggle as back up. Roy while a member was either street informant or in a juiced up with Mirakuru to keep it simple. He never really got a mask until The Unthinkable episode.

Season 3- Oliver, Sara, Diggle, Roy then Laurel, Ray and have I missed anyone else? I think that's about it. Oh and Thea by the end of the season if we are counting her.

Season 4- Diggle, Thea, Laurel, Sara, Ray, Curtis whose going to become Mr. Terrific and oh right Oliver Queen. That would be 7 people on Team Arrow, far to many.

I think what would work better of bringing in Hourman would be like what they did with Barry Allen back in season 2. That I would be fine with and oh make it happen in season 5 or 6 (if they even make it that long) since this year I think all of us would agree with we've had plenty hero set ups. I mean enough is enough guys. Because well I for one would like my show back of Oliver not being a supporting character in a soap opera, think season 1 or 2.

[Amarice]

Oliver and Felicity went back and forth on his need to keep her away from the dangers that came with his vigilante lifestyle (and so ironic that she was targeted because of her relationship to Oliver, not the Green Arrow) and when she finally convinced her that it was her choice to make, he proposed. The fact that they talked about it as adults and reached a solution is what makes them one of the more mature relationships on TV.

While I agree that in this episode Oliver and Felicity relationship was shown better than it's normally done (them talking about risks and choices to be made for example) I think that to call it one of "the most mature relationship on TV" you would have to really narrow down the category "TV". And even if "Arrow" was the only one in it, there are still pairings which were done much better than Olicity. For me Olicity worked as far, as it was one-sided with Felicity having a crush on Oliver. But I understand that some people might like this pairing, since it fits perfectly into popular tv tropes (damaged hero changed by the girl he eventually falls in love with etc. - it's not like I didn't hear this before). Pairings in general are not the thing I'm the most interested in superhero shows, and I can easily name at least ten different things/themes/tropes which are much more interesting in "Arrow" (or rather were) and which drew me to this show originally.

The guy who drunkenly peed on a cop car and told Sara not to worry about Laurel finding out she's on the boat seemed to be expressing his feelings quite freely. Pre-island Ollie was so shallow, the only time I remember him having deep feelings about anything was in the scene with Moira when he found out that the baby had miscarried, and I think Moira understood.
Post-island Oliver suffers/suffered from PTSD, the producers have said.

Pre-island Oliver clearly wasn't able to form any stable relationship. Seems that every time the things were getting complicated he prefered just to run away and let the problems solve by itself.

Yes, post-island Oliver suffers from PTSD. Although at this stage of the show it's hardly ever refrerred. Nobody also questions the rationality of his actions (the only exception here is Joe West from "The Flash", who still thinks he is "a crazy man").

[DoubleDevil]

The fact that they talked about it as adults and reached a solution is what makes them one of the more mature relationships on TV.

Because Oliver and Felicity were able to discuss a single disagreement as rational adults makes their relationship mature? Maybe if the only TV one watches is the CW with shows like Reign. Sorry but even with the melodrama they infused in Jessica Jones and Luke Cage's relationship it was much more maturely handled than Olicity, even Oliver and Sara was a more mature relationship than what we see from this seasons leading couple. A single instance doesn't correct 2 seasons worth of immaturity.

[JDBentz]

Because Oliver and Felicity were able to discuss a single disagreement as rational adults makes their relationship mature? Maybe if the only TV one watches is the CW with shows like Reign. Sorry but even with the melodrama they infused in Jessica Jones and Luke Cage's relationship it was much more maturely handled than Olicity, even Oliver and Sara was a more mature relationship than what we see from this seasons leading couple. A single instance doesn't correct 2 seasons worth of immaturity.

Not to mention that all of the 'side pairings' on the show have also been handled maturely (Roy/Thea, Dig/Lyla, and the brief Laurel/Ted). Even the recent SmoaknLance pairing that the Olicity fanbase pushed for was handled decently, in that Quentin responds how you'd expect to being called Donna's boyfriend when he thought it was just a date. Amusingly, that relationship is a good show of just how horribly messed up Arrow has become by listening to the Olicity fanbase, with Quentin representing your average viewer and Donna representing the Olicity fanbase (or at least the crazier ones).

[Dagenspear]

I don't really disagree.

God bless you all! God bless everyone!

[katakombs]

I don't think Oliver would go after family members but if Thea died, Malcolm would go after them.

That could be interesting. But as Malcolm said, he doesn't want to start a war between the League of Assassins and HIVE.

Possible reasons for the public proposal:
1. This is Politician Oliver Queen, not private citizen Oliver Queen. It could shoot up his popularity points.
2. Felicity was worried that he had changed his mind when she figured out he had intended to propose 3 months earlier. This was a public commitment to her letting her know he hadn't.
3. They had spent much of the episode proposing to each other. This was just formalizing it.

[cosmicbimbo]

I don't think Oliver would go after family members but if Thea died, Malcolm would go after them.

Probably with Oliver's help. Oliver DID say that he owes Malcolm.

[BkWurm1]

Because Oliver and Felicity were able to discuss a single disagreement as rational adults makes their relationship mature? Maybe if the only TV one watches is the CW with shows like Reign. Sorry but even with the melodrama they infused in Jessica Jones and Luke Cage's relationship it was much more maturely handled than Olicity, even Oliver and Sara was a more mature relationship than what we see from this seasons leading couple. A single instance doesn't correct 2 seasons worth of immaturity.

It hasn't been a single issue though. 4-08 has been the exception not the rule. Since Oliver and Felicity actually got together as a couple they have handled all their issues well. In 4-01 Oliver figured out that Felicity had been working with the team behind his back and they had an adult discussion of what had happened, when and why and talked about their issues. Then we saw Oliver being very sweet and supportive in 4-2 when sending her off to her job and in the background of most episodes we saw them maturely interacting, clearly in a relationship but weaving it nicely into the regular day in day out demands of the job.

In 4-6 they did have a fight and yes, Felicity was taking pot shots but there were mitigating circumstances (at least a couple days no sleep with someone's life on the line and her mother visiting with always pushed her buttons) but they did finally talk about what was causing her to react so sharply and Oliver didn't escalate things when he found out she had some deep concerns. He gave her space and found someone he could talk to about his worries. And Felicity came to him and acknowledged that she'd freaked out and thanked him for his understanding and support and they where able to put the fight behind them.

4-8 had Oliver going back to lying and Felicity almost instantly going to 11 in her anger at him and neither are in character so at this point, it remains the out of character episode.

4-9 had them communication and leaning on each other in a beautiful way. They were open and honest and respectful and kind to one another.

With the exception of the OOC 4-8 fight, this season has showcased their relationship quite well. They still have issues to smooth out but this season has captured what I'd always loved about their relationship in the early seasons. They talk. They deal with their issues. They respect each other and work wonderfully together. Season three for me was proof of how bad it is when Oliver and Felicity are NOT together. Once they put them together, all the contrived drama just went away because their relationship isn't built on drama. Which is why the Baby Mama drama got singled out in all the reviews as contrived and really bad writing.

Here's hoping as the season goes on we see more influence in the episodes from WM (who was one of the writers in Dark Waters) than MG (who was one of the writers in the Arrow crossover mess).

[Dagenspear]

4-8 had Oliver going back to lying and Felicity almost instantly going to 11 in her anger at him and neither are in character so at this point, it remains the out of character episode.

4-9 had them communication and leaning on each other in a beautiful way. They were open and honest and respectful and kind to one another.

With the exception of the OOC 4-8 fight, this season has showcased their relationship quite well. They still have issues to smooth out but this season has captured what I'd always loved about their relationship in the early seasons. They talk. They deal with their issues. They respect each other and work wonderfully together. Season three for me was proof of how bad it is when Oliver and Felicity are NOT together.

They didn't have a relationship like that. How bad it is when Oliver and Felicity aren't together is proof of how bad they are together. If their relationship is like that apart then that's a reflection of them together. Oliver going back to lying and Felicity's attitude isn't OOC. This is how these characters have been since season 2.

God bless you! God bless everyone!