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Was Rumple really that bad to Bae?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Anu
    I still believe that Rumple became the dark one because of Neal, and I will not change that opinion.
    Actually, Rumple knew he didn't have to become the Dark One to save his son. He knew he only had to have the dagger to control him. He made the choice of taking the power for himself because he was afraid of controlling the Dark One and he wanted those powers for himself. There are 2 dialogues from "Deperate Souls" that makes this pretty clear. First, when he is told he could control him, and his answer was 'I would be too afraid'. And later, when he talks to Baefire about it, and Bae tells him he doesn't need to do it, that he'd rather go to war, and Rumple's answer is how he would love to have those powers: " If I own that dagger, I control the Dark One. If I kill the Dark One with the dagger, I take his powers. Imagine me with those powers. Can you imagine me with those powers, Bae?"

    And, in the end, when really confronted with it, he let himself be taunted by the Dark One, who kept telling him he would be exchanging his soul for a son who was probably not even his. This, ultimately, made him kill the Dark One and take his powers for himself.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by SteelyGal
      Hook used Dream Shade that would have killed Rumple until Snow saved him. After Neal had Rumple immobilized with squid ink, he could have used Dream Shade to kill Rumple. Neal lived in Neverland so it is not so farfetch he would know how to get the deadly poison.
      He didn't have to go far. He was at Peter Pan's camp. He only had to take one of those arrows lying around.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by SteelyGal
        Hook used Dream Shade that would have killed Rumple until Snow saved him. After Neal had Rumple immobilized with squid ink, he could have used Dream Shade to kill Rumple. Neal lived in Neverland so it is not so farfetch he would know how to get the deadly poison.
        Well, I'm sure that dream shade wouldn't kill the dark one. It only almost killed him in season 2 because he had no powers, one he became the dark one again he was healed. The dagger is the only thing that possibly can kill the dark one, not dream shade.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by liana
          Actually, Rumple knew he didn't have to become the Dark One to save his son. He knew he only had to have the dagger to control him. He made the choice of taking the power for himself because he was afraid of controlling the Dark One and he wanted those powers for himself. There are 2 dialogues from "Deperate Souls" that makes this pretty clear. First, when he is told he could control him, and his answer was 'I would be too afraid'. And later, when he talks to Baefire about it, and Bae tells him he doesn't need to do it, that he'd rather go to war, and Rumple's answer is how he would love to have those powers: " If I own that dagger, I control the Dark One. If I kill the Dark One with the dagger, I take his powers. Imagine me with those powers. Can you imagine me with those powers, Bae?"

          And, in the end, when really confronted with it, he let himself be taunted by the Dark One, who kept telling him he would be exchanging his soul for a son who was probably not even his. This, ultimately, made him kill the Dark One and take his powers for himself.
          As I remember, the dark one always tricked Rumple. He made him kill him, he had no choice. It was an accident too. He couldn't have the dagger to control him, because the dark one tricked him into killing him.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by liana
            He didn't have to go far. He was at Peter Pan's camp. He only had to take one of those arrows lying around.
            I don't quite understand how dream shade could possibly kill the dark one? :s

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            • #51
              Originally posted by liana
              Actually, Rumple knew he didn't have to become the Dark One to save his son. He knew he only had to have the dagger to control him. He made the choice of taking the power for himself because he was afraid of controlling the Dark One and he wanted those powers for himself. There are 2 dialogues from "Deperate Souls" that makes this pretty clear. First, when he is told he could control him, and his answer was 'I would be too afraid'. And later, when he talks to Baefire about it, and Bae tells him he doesn't need to do it, that he'd rather go to war, and Rumple's answer is how he would love to have those powers: " If I own that dagger, I control the Dark One. If I kill the Dark One with the dagger, I take his powers. Imagine me with those powers. Can you imagine me with those powers, Bae?"

              And, in the end, when really confronted with it, he let himself be taunted by the Dark One, who kept telling him he would be exchanging his soul for a son who was probably not even his. This, ultimately, made him kill the Dark One and take his powers for himself.
              He didn't kill the dark one because he was upset or taunted by the dark one. If you watched the episode, you would see clearly that he tricked him into killing him. It was an accident.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Anu
                As I remember, the dark one always tricked Rumple. He made him kill him, he had no choice. It was an accident too. He couldn't have the dagger to control him, because the dark one tricked him into killing him.
                Actually, he could control the Dark One and he knew that he could. The episode made it pretty clear. The thing is, controlling the Dark One terrified Rumple, and he was tempted when the beggar told him about having the powers for himself and becoming the Dark One. It was a much more apealing alternative to Rumple. And yes, the Dark One tricked him, by pretending to be a beggar, and giving him all the information about the dagger. And the reason why he told it all, was exactly because he knew what would be Rumple's choice. He recognized Rumple as a desperate soul, and played his cowardice as well as his anger at being labelled as a coward.

                But, ultimately, Rumple did know there was an alternative, and the Dark One made it pretty clear. Rumple could have made the Dark One do exactly what he, Rumple, did with his powers. He was under his control. He even asked him what he wanted him to do. Rumple, however, was so afraid of him, that he didn't even think. His panic and later his anger at the insinuation of Bae not being son ultimately made him kill the Dark One in an impulse. But, in the end, he killed the Dark One because he was angry and because he could.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Anu
                  He didn't kill the dark one because he was upset or taunted by the dark one. If you watched the episode, you would see clearly that he tricked him into killing him. It was an accident.
                  Do you want the whole scene? I have all the quotes of the transcript right here. It wasn't an accident. It was a choice.

                  Rumpelstiltskin: Zoso. Zoso. I summon thee!

                  (Nothing appears to happen and Rumpelstiltskin lowers the dagger. When he turns around, he comes face to face with the Dark One. He stumbles backwards.)

                  Zoso: You were asking for me?

                  Rumpelstiltskin: Submit, O Dark One! I control you!

                  Zoso: Yes, you do. Wield the power wisely. You can wield at any time now. It’s almost dawn. That means it’s your son’s birthday. I bet Hordor and his men are already on their way to your house.

                  Rumpelstiltskin: No, they can’t take him.

                  Zoso: You don’t control them – you control me. Have you ever wondered – was he really your child at all? Unlike you, he’s not a coward and yearns to fight and die in glory.

                  Rumpelstiltskin: No…

                  Zoso: What a poor bargain that would be – to lay down your soul to save your bastard son. So, I ask you – what would you have me do?

                  Rumpelstiltskin: Die.
                  Last edited by liana; 10-22-2013, 10:52 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by liana
                    Actually, he could control the Dark One and he knew that he could. The episode made it pretty clear. The thing is, controlling the Dark One terrified Rumple, and he was tempted when the beggar told him about having the powers for himself and becoming the Dark One. It was a much more apealing alternative to Rumple. And yes, the Dark One tricked him, by pretending to be a beggar, and giving him all the information about the dagger. And the reason why he told it all, was exactly because he knew what would be Rumple's choice. He recognized Rumple as a desperate soul, and played his cowardice as well as his anger at being labelled as a coward.

                    But, ultimately, Rumple did know there was an alternative, and the Dark One made it pretty clear. Rumple could have made the Dark One do exactly what he, Rumple, did with his powers. He was under his control. He even asked him what he wanted him to do. Rumple, however, was so afraid of him, that he didn't even think. His panic and later his anger at the insinuation of Bae not being son ultimately made him kill the Dark One in an impulse. But, in the end, he killed the Dark One because he was angry and because he could.
                    It was still an accident, he didn't plan on killing the beggar (he had no idea that he was the dark one). Anyone, anyone would attack a person that provokes one like that. I still don't see it as an argument that it was intention that he killed the beggar(the dark one) to become the dark one.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Anu
                      Well, I'm sure that dream shade wouldn't kill the dark one. It only almost killed him in season 2 because he had no powers, one he became the dark one again he was healed. The dagger is the only thing that possibly can kill the dark one, not dream shade.
                      Rumple did not heal once he returned to Storybrooke and got his magic back. That is why Snow had to do what she did to save him. The fact that Rumple strongly believes he will die if he goes toe to toe with Pan proves that the dagger isn't the only way to kill Rumple. If so, after his shadow hid the dagger, he wouldn't be afraid dying when he fights Pan.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Anu
                        It was still an accident, he didn't plan on killing the beggar (he had no idea that he was the dark one). Anyone, anyone would attack a person that provokes one like that. I still don't see it as an argument that it was intention that he killed the beggar(the dark one) to become the dark one.
                        I'm not saying he killed the beggar. He took the dagger, summed the Dark One, and killed the Dark One with the intention of taking his powers for himself. He discussed it with Bae, and told him he could either control the Dark One, or become him, and he'd rather be the Dark One. The episode made this pretty clear. As I quoted the dialogue for the scene above, you can see that he did summon the Dark One with his dagger, and he chose to kill him.

                        When the Dark One started to die, he became the beggar, and that's when Rumple realized he must have made a bad choice, because why would the Dark One want to die if having those powers was such a *great* thing as Rumple believed to be.

                        However, Rumple always knew he could have chosen to control the Dark One. The beggar told him as much, but he also made sure Rumple knew he could take those powers too. Having the powers for himself seemed a better alternative to him.

                        And I don't agree anyone would kill a person only because he was provoked. I'm pretty that wouldn't be an argument that would stand in court.

                        Personally, I have always believed Rumple ceased having complete free will after becoming the Dark One. I think it did work as a possession of sorts, and that Dark Magic has tainted all choices he made after that. However, I also do believe he made a choice. The Dark One even said he would be selling his soul, and he could have made the choice of merely controllling Zozo, and use him against the ones who were enlisting children to fight for them.

                        Rumple might have underestimated the hold Dark Magic would have on him, but he had a choice, and he started darkening his heart the moment he chose to kill the Dark One instead of controlling him.
                        Last edited by liana; 10-22-2013, 11:57 AM.

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                        • #57
                          And what would happen to Rumple after he stopped controling Zozo? I'm sure he Zozo would kill him. And then I also found it so weird in this episode about trust. That Rumple was the bad guy again because he didn't ask Bae if he wanted to come home with him.

                          Seriously what parent would go around asking their child if they want to come home with them, when he's in the hands of a sociopath (Peter Pan) Any parent would just try to get their child so quickly away from the bad guy. Why would Rumple listen to Pan's mind games? I just thought that was written pretty poor too.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Anu
                            And what would happen to Rumple after he stopped controling Zozo? I'm sure he Zozo would kill him. And then I also found it so weird in this episode about trust. That Rumple was the bad guy again because he didn't ask Bae if he wanted to come home with him.

                            Seriously what parent would go around asking their child if they want to come home with them, when he's in the hands of a sociopath (Peter Pan) Any parent would just try to get their child so quickly away from the bad guy. Why would Rumple listen to Pan's mind games? I just thought that was written pretty poor too.
                            Actually, I thought that part was written fine because of Rumple's character. He loves magic, and even in terms of family, he'll make sure he'll keep it. At the same time, though, he does love his son greatly and can't bear to lose him. In a good sense, he's the foil to Regina but with different motivations: most of her actions were out of spite because of the girl that got her true love killed. Everything beyond that was fueled by that simple feeling, and in a way it drove her mad. Rumple, however, was motivated by the desire to prove that he wasn't a coward. Every action of his that we've seen whether it be pre-Storybrooke or beyond, he's always shown himself to be incredibly fearless and even going so far as to do things to show the people just how fearless he is...yet in the end, he's terrified of anything that will cost him his life, but most specifically the hold that the dark power has on him.

                            Neal's disgust might have been a little much, but it held water: It didn't matter if the one the prophecy mentioned was someone completely unrelated to him. He was setting his sights on killing someone because of a prophecy...and not just anyone, but a BOY. Neal was probably going with the three strikes rule with Rumple:

                            *Strike 1: Rumple used dark magic to kill someone, and then broke his promise/deal to Baelfire, leaving him to be fatherless for quite some time.
                            *Strike 2: Rumple promised he was better, then went right back to his old ways (when Belle was "Lacey,"), made his son believe he was going to die, then tricked someone into darkening her heart, and killing someone else for him so he could live.
                            *Strike 3: Rumple decides to kill a boy that would be his undoing (once again, self preservation for a third time), and Neal finds out. Then what happens after their fight? Rumple decides to go back to his mindset of killing Henry.

                            He gave his father chances, and Rumple broke them whether he meant to or not. Magic held too tight of a hold on him and Neal began to see that. Bae probably began to feel that Rumple didn't love him, but was only too afraid of being abandoned like his wife and father had done as well. In a way, I imagine Bae probably felt trapped because of this, which was why Peter was able to call out to him. Or, if anything, Peter had ran into Baelfire beforehand and made the deal with him. Holding some respect for his father and wanting to see what would happen (He did say that he was ready to come home in an instant if Rumple talked to him), he agreed to Peter's deal. But what did Rumple do the instant he found Bae? He not only broke the deal he made with Peter himself, but he relied on magic to get Bae out of there. Sociopath or not, he could have at least tried to talk to Bae before he magicked out.

                            The whole thing was about trust. Bae relied on his father trusting him, and in that instant, Rumple showed that he couldn't place trust in his own son. Likewise, Rumple showed Bae that he couldn't trust him when he stayed behind when Bae went through the portal. And before that, he showed Bae that he couldn't even trust him leaving the house because of his excuse that he had enemies out there (though it was more likely that he was afraid that Bae would leave. He couldn't trust that Bae would stay). That's really all it comes down to for Bae/Neal, and why I do feel like, though maybe he overdid it a little, his feelings were justified. Rumple may act brave as the Dark One, but he can't even trust his own son. Bae has given him constant chances to show that he could be trusted and to show Rumple that he needs to trust him, but Rumple has failed every one of those chances. Rumple trusts magic more than his own son, his own family. He trusts it so much that he'd let his son slip away from him, and he'd even go as far as even considering killing a child, let alone his grandson, just because he loves magic.

                            And I mean...you have to think about it: Hasn't Rumple even thought that his actions are what make the prophecy come true? His hellbent quest to kill Henry came out of the water to Peter Pan, and look what it already cost him: Henry is in the hands of Peter Pan and everyone is going to try to save him. Neal now knows that Rumple was on that hellbent quest at some point and because of the lack of trust, doesn't know if it's over (which we're being shown that he quickly is going back on that path). Once Neal and Henry meet with Emma and the rest, what do you think's going to happen? Everyone is going to find out that Rumple was on the path to try to kill Henry...whether it's Neal that tells them, or Peter Pan (since he loves creating fights), or someone else. BOOM. Prophecy came true thanks to Rumple's actions.
                            Last edited by Leonatus; 10-24-2013, 03:07 AM.

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