SIREN and FRACTURE Official Re-Watch Thread, October 19th, 2012

[Freawaru]

Here is at least a start:

directly killed by Lex
Roger Nixon
Morgan Edge
Graham Garrett
Orlando Block
Bronson
Dr. Langston
Adrian Cross
Lionel
assassin in Quest
Tess

indirectly killed/ordered or direct result of Lex's actions
kidnap victims in Freak
Senator Burke & his men
Grant Gabriel
PAtricia Swann
LuthorCorp Board of Directors
33.1 scientist in Phantom

I agree with all of them except Patricia Swann and the meteor infected in Freak. I think it was Edward Teaque who hired her driver to kill her and Lex only monitored her and when he found out that she had been killed he outbid Teaque just like Lionel outbid Lex regarding whatever that guy found against Jonathan running for senator. It is the very same pattern as we have seen before. And we have also seen before that the Teagues like to kill somebody and then blame the Luthors for it.

As to the meteor infected, Lex never ordered that doctor to kill them. He didn't even put a bomb into them as Tess did years later. We saw that the guy himself decided to kill them all, against Lex's order.

[MrsK]

I agree with all of them except Patricia Swann and the meteor infected in Freak. I think it was Edward Teaque who hired her driver to kill her and Lex only monitored her and when he found out that she had been killed he outbid Teaque just like Lionel outbid Lex regarding whatever that guy found against Jonathan running for senator. It is the very same pattern as we have seen before. And we have also seen before that the Teagues like to kill somebody and then blame the Luthors for it.

As to the meteor infected, Lex never ordered that doctor to kill them. He didn't even put a bomb into them as Tess did years later. We saw that the guy himself decided to kill them all, against Lex's order.

Lois and Jimmy found the photo of Lex meeting with and paying off Patricia's driver that Lionel left for Lana in Veritas. And Lex is the one who ended up with her locket - which was ripped from her neck before her body was thrown into the water. I don't think the Teagues can be blamed for Patricia's death.

And I don't think there is any evidence that Dr Bethany is the one who ordered that the meteor freaks be terminated. I'll agree that there is nothing specifically indicating that it was on Lex's orders, either, but it seems much more likely that Lex would order something like that. As he said, he doesn't tolerate loose ends.

[RightWingConspirator]

He killed Edge. But only the second time. He first shot to hurt him when Edge tried to kill Clark. Then Edge got away and Lex chased him. Edge was racing in a car towards Lex and Lex shot him to keep him from getting away and would have been killed by the car in the process if Clark had not saved him.

I stand corrected.

That hasn't happened since 1967.

[Freawaru]

Lois and Jimmy found the photo of Lex meeting with and paying off Patricia's driver that Lionel left for Lana in Veritas. And Lex is the one who ended up with her locket - which was ripped from her neck before her body was thrown into the water. I don't think the Teagues can be blamed for Patricia's death.

Yes. But if someone had taken a photo showing the meeting between Lionel and Griff they would have come to the conclusion that Lionel hired Griff, too. I have three problems with Lex being the one who hired the "driver": First, it was a sloppy murder. Lionel taught him that one has to be carefull to plan a sucessfull murder, right? Even slapped him in the face when he didn't. Patty's murder was hardly done in a professional way. More like Bridget Crosby's. Too many leads. To much to cover up.

Second: Lex had no motive. He could have taken the key from Patty without killing her. He could have it stolen in a normal way, or exchanged it with a duplicate while she slept or something. Patty was new in that game the Luthors excelled. We see later in Quest that he does not kill that watchmaker, even though he would have had much more reason to do it than killing Patty Swann. So we know that Lex does kill, but not indiscriminately. He only commits murder if he thinks it is the only option left.

Third: If Lex had hired that "driver" he would not have met him in a place somebody could take a photo. Think of his meeting with Griff two seasons before. Think of how Lex hid his projects in season five, six, and seven - even Lionel didn't know about the Julien clones. To meet a killer like he did in the case of Patty is unprofessional - so it was not planned but spontaneous. And whatever his motives at the time of season seven Lex is quite a professional in these kind of things.

No. The death of Patty Swann was just another case of blaming Lex for something he didn't do. In the typical pattern of Smallville since season one. And as we learn an episode or two later Edward Teague was still alive - and wanted the device just as he always had wanted them. Killed several people for it, tried to get Lex killed in Zurich. All this makes him the prime suspect, IMO.

And I don't think there is any evidence that Dr Bethany is the one who ordered that the meteor freaks be terminated. I'll agree that there is nothing specifically indicating that it was on Lex's orders, either, but it seems much more likely that Lex would order something like that. As he said, he doesn't tolerate loose ends.

Yes. He said that. And then we see him ordering Dr. Bethany to bring Tobias to him - unharmed. If he was following Lex's orders, why did he try to kill Tobias?

As to Dr. Bethany being the one who killed the meteor freaks - he confessed it to Lana and Tobias. He said he had to do it to cover his tracks (because his computer had been stolen by Clark - so we might as well blaming Clark driving Bethany to such desperate means). Bethany tracked the meteor infected with the GPS and then killed them in the same way he came to Tobias to kill him. (BTW, one of the infected was able to see the future - no way Lex would have had him killed. Too useful a talent.)

Lex only wanted the infected to be monitored to be able to interfere before they actually start to kill. It was the logical and right thing to do. Sure, he could have insisted on being nicer to the infected while they were examined by Dr. Bethany and we can hold him on that, but his intentions were to protect them as well as the innocents they would kill if nobody stopped them. We see a similar situation in the season 10 when Chloe tries to free our heroes from "The Matrix" but they all misinterpret it as her being the one to do experiments on them and torturing them. It is typical Smallville that the heroes come to the wrong conclusions most of the time.

[DJ Doena]

Yes. He said that. And then we see him ordering Dr. Bethany to bring Tobias to him - unharmed. If he was following Lex's orders, why did he try to kill Tobias?

Lex: "Then you give me no choice. [...] I don't tolerate loose ends, doctor. Bring me Tobias... unharmed." As you said, "He only commits murder if he thinks it is the only option left."

Dr. Bethany: "The powers that be want me to take you to them, but -- but if I do that, I'm a dead man."

Meaning, the only person Lex was really interested in is Tobias. When he has Tobias he can find new meteor freaks, he doesn't need the incriminated ones. And he certainly doesn't need Dr. Bethany. He can hire a new doctor who does his dirty work.

Tobias is the only unique and thus valuable person in the whole scheme in Lex's eyes.

As for Dr. Bethany: His plan could have been to make Tobias disappear so that Lex would assume that Bethany hid him. As long as Lex thinks Bethany is the only one who knows where Tobias is hidden, Bethany's life has any value to Lex.

Actually rescuing Tobias has two drawbacks: First, it's work and Tobias might be uncooperative. Second, if Tobias is alive he can actually be found and Bethany's trump card becomes zilch.

[Freawaru]

Lex: "Then you give me no choice. [...] I don't tolerate loose ends, doctor. Bring me Tobias... unharmed." As you said, "He only commits murder if he thinks it is the only option left."

Dr. Bethany: "The powers that be want me to take you to them, but -- but if I do that, I'm a dead man."

Meaning, the only person Lex was really interested in is Tobias.

I don't think this is shown here. What is shown is that Dr. Bethany thinks so. If we include what we learn about Lex in season one to ten a different picture manifests.

When he has Tobias he can find new meteor freaks, he doesn't need the incriminated ones.

I think there are some talents that are rare. Pyrokinesis for example. When Clark demonstrated it to Dr. Knox to show him he needs to be "cured", Dr. Knox said "he will be disappointed". I think, "he" means Lex. When we look at the talents Lex is most interested in they are always those that can be used to fight superpowered aliens. At least two of the meteor infected in Freak had very useful talents for this: telekinesis and precognition. The meteor infected that were tagged were no danger to Lex (or anybody else at the moment), thus Lex had other options than to kill them.

And secondly, as we learn in Cure and in Homecoming Lex's goal was to heal all the meteor infected - killing them was not his plan.

And he certainly doesn't need Dr. Bethany. He can hire a new doctor who does his dirty work.

Yes. But he had not actually hired Dr. Bethany. They had an agreement, but Bethany did not officially work for Luthorcorp. I guess he didn't even know about 33.1. Neither ever mentioned anything related to it and Lex suggested to Bethany that his motive to support him was that he himself had been hurt by meteor freaks just like Dr. Bethany.

"You give me no choice" meant that Lex broke their current agreement. He intended to keep Dr. Bethany closer than before. Dr. Bethany had had too much liberty in his actions and Lex was about to restrict them now because Bethany had broken secrecy. He would have been working on the meteor infection like before but under Lex's supervision instead of just sending him a weekly report.

As for Dr. Bethany: His plan could have been to make Tobias disappear so that Lex would assume that Bethany hid him. As long as Lex thinks Bethany is the only one who knows where Tobias is hidden, Bethany's life has any value to Lex.

Actually rescuing Tobias has two drawbacks: First, it's work and Tobias might be uncooperative. Second, if Tobias is alive he can actually be found and Bethany's trump card becomes zilch.

I agree. This might have been Dr. Bethany's thoughts and motives for killing the meteor infected and trying to kill Tobias. But only because he didn't know Lex well. If Lex had intended to kill him he would have send him away without any indication that he will do something, and then send somebody after him to kill him. That is the pattern we have been shown whenever he actually plans to kill somebody. He would have send his own teams from 33.1 (we see one of them in action in "Traveler", though it is Lionel who sends them in this case) to kidnap the meteor infected including Tobias. It would have been easy to kidnap Tobias - he was always at home and it is quite normal for people in Smallville to vanish suddenly.

So Dr. Bethany's life was not in danger from Lex. But I understand that he thought so.

[Arbar]

I think his mother was way worse. One cannot expect a child of that age to keep a secret like that, especially not from a parent. Still, she made Lex go against his own father in her petty game with her husband. Well knowing that Lionel could get angry. And after the boy told Lionel she blamed her son for it all. I really really don't like her in all scenes we saw her in Smallville. I have no idea where Lex and pretty much everybody else got the idea that she was some kind of angel. Lionel at least was consistent and wanted the best for his family (even though his means are not the best) - but she just blamed all her problems on her husband and her children.

Another parallel between Lana and Lillian - nobody seemed to realise who the Mrs. Luthors really were.

I agree with you that Lillian was a terribly unlikeable character, even when she's speaking to Lex from the great beyond. I don't think telling your son how horrible he is, and how he's going to be evil is the right way to help him, and I certainly don't see how presenting him with a potential future where he loses his wife because he rejected power would convince him to reform.

[Arbar]

Oh, and I'm still confuzzled about why Clark met pre-meteor shower child Lex. I would have loved it if the good side of Lex was actually portrayed as he was in Onyx - because that's who Clark was friends with, and that is the Lex that encompasses all his good characteristics.

[MrsK]

As to Dr. Bethany being the one who killed the meteor freaks - he confessed it to Lana and Tobias. He said he had to do it to cover his tracks (because his computer had been stolen by Clark - so we might as well blaming Clark driving Bethany to such desperate means). Bethany tracked the meteor infected with the GPS and then killed them in the same way he came to Tobias to kill him. (BTW, one of the infected was able to see the future - no way Lex would have had him killed. Too useful a talent.)

I don't remember that being part of their conversation

I think there are some talents that are rare. Pyrokinesis for example. When Clark demonstrated it to Dr. Knox to show him he needs to be "cured", Dr. Knox said "he will be disappointed". I think, "he" means Lex.

This is also a scene I don't remember. When did Clark tell Dr. Knox he needed to be cured?

And secondly, as we learn in Cure and in Homecoming Lex's goal was to heal all the meteor infected - killing them was not his plan.

I agree it might not be the plan, but if their continued existence would put Lex's larger plan at risk, I don't think he would hesitate to have them eliminated.

[RightWingConspirator]

Oh, and I'm still confuzzled about why Clark met pre-meteor shower child Lex. I would have loved it if the good side of Lex was actually portrayed as he was in Onyx - because that's who Clark was friends with, and that is the Lex that encompasses all his good characteristics.

This was in Lex's mind. As we'll see in "Descent" Lex uses a vision of him as a child to represent is good ("weak") side. This would also be well before Lionel savagely mistreated him to where he started down his own dark road.

[RightWingConspirator]

This is also a scene I don't remember. When did Clark tell Dr. Knox he needed to be cured?

It was in a deleted scene

[Freawaru]

I don't remember that being part of their conversation

He said he had to kill Tobias and also Lana. He said he wanted to kill them both with a weapon that would send voltage through their body and stop the heart immediately. This is what he said. We saw that the GPS signals stopped at the moment of the meteor infected's deaths - and as we saw in Chloe's case it was really just a GPS device, no poison or selfdestruct or something. While the telekinet was officially killed in a car accident such an accident would not have destroyed the GPS. But an electroshock of high voltage would - and that was Dr. Bethany's weapon. The meteor infected were killed one by one with quite some time inbetween - this indicates one killer, not a number of teams send by Lex. And the killings stopped after Dr. Bethany was dead - I think Chloe and Clark would have searched for the killer if they had not stopped - this again indicates a lone killer, not a number of teams. As Dr. Bethany was willing to kill both Tobias and Lana, while Lex wanted Tobias alive, certainly didn't want Lana to die, and had kidnapped numerous meteor infected instead of simply killing them already, I still think Dr. Bethany is the most likely suspect of the murders of the telekinet and the other meteor infected.

This is also a scene I don't remember. When did Clark tell Dr. Knox he needed to be cured?

Oopsie. Sorry. Was one of the deleted scenes.

I agree it might not be the plan, but if their continued existence would put Lex's larger plan at risk, I don't think he would hesitate to have them eliminated.

Yes. If. But this was not the case. He had various options. They didn't even recall that they had been abducted for a night - so he was in no personal danger at all from them. The infection was not so advanced that they were already insane so he could keep monitoring them in their "natural environment" as Clark called it. It also saved him the money of the quarantine.

All clues point to Dr. Bethany killing the meteor infected, not only not on Lex's authority but even against his orders.

[Freawaru]

Another parallel between Lana and Lillian - nobody seemed to realise who the Mrs. Luthors really were.

Good point. Never thought about that.

I agree with you that Lillian was a terribly unlikeable character, even when she's speaking to Lex from the great beyond. I don't think telling your son how horrible he is, and how he's going to be evil is the right way to help him, and I certainly don't see how presenting him with a potential future where he loses his wife because he rejected power would convince him to reform.

Indeed. From what we heard of her all the time I quite imagined a person with more intelligence and compassion.

[Freawaru]

This was in Lex's mind. As we'll see in "Descent" Lex uses a vision of him as a child to represent is good ("weak") side. This would also be well before Lionel savagely mistreated him to where he started down his own dark road.

It seems to me that child Lex represents not Lex's good side but the side of him that wants to be good. And known by others that he is good. Good equals weak in the slave morality by Nietzsche, whose philosophy is well known by Lex and adored by Lionel. According to that morality everybody who has power is evil, those who keep low and weak are good. Child Lex tells adult Lex "we can still be good" to convince him to tell Clark the reason why he killed Lionel.

[Freawaru]

It was in a deleted scene

Thanks