Were there any Gay characters on Smallville

[liana]

Tina never was gay. She was a shapeshifter and to be with Lana (again) she shifted into a male form. She was straight the whole time.

You are implying that being a shapeshifter meant having no sexuality whatsoever (both man and woman in the same time)? This is a weird concept. In DC's mithology, Martians are shapeshifter, and they still have define sexualities. If you take J'onn (Martian Man Hunter) as an example, he is a straight male, and he even mentioned having a wife and kids in Absolute Justice while talking to Doctor Fate. He also had a niece in former continuity (I don't know if Miss Martian exists in the DCnU), and in Young Justice she was portrayed as a straight female (even though she is a shapeshifter) and in love with Superboy.

Even if you were right, and shapeshifter had no sexuality at all, you still have to remember Tina wasn't born a shapeshifter. She was born a regular girl with a sickness that affected her bones. She became a meteor freak because of the meteor shower.

X-RAY

Martha: That's probably because Tina was born with a soft bone disease. They had that poor girl on all these experimental drugs. Doctors didn't believe she'd live to see first grade.

Jonathan: She did get better right around her third birthday.

Clark: That was right after the meteor shower, wasn't it?

As far as I know, becoming a shape shifter doesn't mean your sexuality is unexistant. She was still a female, probably still had her XX chromossomes in her DNA, but she was able to alter her physical appearance. In another words, she looked like a man without actually becoming one. Usually, in fiction, shape shifter alter their appearances, but they don't change at molecular level. In another words, even though Tina looked like Lex, Whitney or Clark, her DNA was still the same, and didn't become theirs. Of course, shape shifter don't exist in real life, so, anyone could alter this at any given time in a work of fiction. I am only talking about what I've usually seen and read about fictional shape shifters, and about what I've seen in DC so far about the subject. If you think about shape shifting as disguising yourself as someone else, as opposed to actually becoming them, that means Tina was still a girl, whether she looked like a male or not.

Tina Greer was born a female, and her DNA was female. She wanted to be with Lana, and she knew Lana was straight, so she pretended to be whoever Lana was in love with, be it Whitney or Clark. Therefore, if she, a girl, fell in love with Lana, she was gay or at the very least bissexual.

VISAGE

Clark: Tina, don't do this.

Tina: If I want to be with Lana, I don't have a choice.

Clark: Last year, you tried to kill her.

Tina: Yeah. It was the worst mistake of my life. She rejected me and I acted without thinking. But I love her, and I'll do anything to be with her. I finally figured out who Lana wants to be with.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Y'know, although there were very few canon GBLT characters, it does strike me that Smallville was one of the most homoerotic shows around. There's a lot of subtext even just in the treatment of Clark's secret. It's a pretty good source for Media Studies students

I agree about the subtext. There were also very suggestive scenes between Clark and Lex and Lois and Tess. It is no wonder those two pairings got so many followers (especially Clark/Lex).

[Freawaru]

Unlike most animals whose sexuality is activated by smell this human instinct works with form. The DNA is not important to the instinct as it has no access to it - like it would if we had better noses for example. Gay is defined by the sexual attraction between male form and male form (same for female). A person who experiences him- or herself as born in the wrong sex is not gay, for example. Tina chose female form to flirt with males and male form to flirt with females. If she had choosen to flirt with Lana in Chloe's form she would be bi. But she never did and so I think she is straight.

Unlike animals humans have a very variable sense of their own body form. It only partially origins in our sense of our physical body. We easily include things into it, that is why we can use tools in the first place. When we use tools, or drive a car, or ride a bike or horse, after some time it feels as if this tool (or whatever) is a part of our physical body - the image of our body that is created in our mind has included the tool (or car, whatever) into it. When one can shift one's body - even if it is just the image of it - into the form of the other sex one becomes that form, identifies with it. You are not gay or bi if you dream of kissing the same sex as you are in reality as long as in your dream you are the opposite. It is not unusual to dream being an animal or a fictional being such as a dragon for example. In dream, one can even experience how it is to have six limbs: two legs, two arms, two wings and move them separately. One can even experience two bodies, moving separately through one's dream world. It is just all about form and identification with form.

[Bizarro Fan]

I always got the impression that Van Mcnulty and Eric summers were secretly gay. Lets not forget Desaad. He was about lust and desire so odds of him ging with men are rather high I would say

[liana]

Unlike most animals whose sexuality is activated by smell this human instinct works with form. The DNA is not important to the instinct as it has no access to it - like it would if we had better noses for example. Gay is defined by the sexual attraction between male form and male form (same for female). A person who experiences him- or herself as born in the wrong sex is not gay, for example. Tina chose female form to flirt with males and male form to flirt with females. If she had choosen to flirt with Lana in Chloe's form she would be bi. But she never did and so I think she is straight.

She was pretty clear that she chose to change herself into male forms because she wanted to be whoever Lana wanted. It was never about what she wanted. It was about fooling Lana, so that she could be with her. If Lana happened to be gay, Tina would have chosen a female form. Originally, she wanted to *be* Lana, and take over her life, because she saw herself as a woman. Ultimately all her instincts were about what our society made women into, to the point of "changing her identity" to be whoever Lana wanted to be with. Her dialogue with Clark, in Visage made it clear that it was all about Lana, and not about her.

Unlike animals humans have a very variable sense of their own body form. It only partially origins in our sense of our physical body. We easily include things into it, that is why we can use tools in the first place. When we use tools, or drive a car, or ride a bike or horse, after some time it feels as if this tool (or whatever) is a part of our physical body - the image of our body that is created in our mind has included the tool (or car, whatever) into it. When one can shift one's body - even if it is just the image of it - into the form of the other sex one becomes that form, identifies with it. You are not gay or bi if you dream of kissing the same sex as you are in reality as long as in your dream you are the opposite. It is not unusual to dream being an animal or a fictional being such as a dragon for example. In dream, one can even experience how it is to have six limbs: two legs, two arms, two wings and move them separately. One can even experience two bodies, moving separately through one's dream world. It is just all about form and identification with form.

Regardless, Tina knew she was Tina, and her identity was her female form. Whenever she wanted to confront a person who was in her way, including Whitney's mom, Pete and Clark, in Visage, she would turn back to her original form. That was her personal identity. As she made clear by that dialogue with Clark in Visage, it wasn't about her personal choice in the matter. It was about Lana's, regardless if Lana wanted a female or a male.

Tina: Yeah. It was the worst mistake of my life. She rejected me and I acted without thinking. But I love her, and I'll do anything to be with her. I finally figured out who Lana wants to be with.

Your racionalization to say that Tina was straight would only apply, IMO, if Tina had chosen a male form because she believed that male should be attracted to female, therefore male and female. That was not Tina's motivation: she wanted to conform herself to be whoever Lana wanted, be it male or female. If Lana wanted her, Tina, she would have remained herself. As she said to Clark, she saw Lana's action in X-Ray as a rejection of her, Tina. Had her seen it as Lana accepting her, she would have tried to be with Lana as herself, but she wanted so badly to be with Lana, that she didn't care if she had to disguise herself as someone else to be with her. Becoming a male to be with a female was never the issue. It was a means to an end, which was to be with Lana. But if given a choice, Tina would have remained herself to be with Lana, as she was herself whenever she confronted everyone else, because that was her identity, and who she truly believed herself.

So, if the definition of self is your own identity, and as your own identity you are a female, and you see yourself as a female, as Tina obviously did, then Tina as a female, loved Lana as a female. The fact that she chose to disguise herself as a male, knowing fully well she was Tina all along, and not ever seing herself as male, but just trying to disguise herself as someone else, that implies, IMO, that she was simply gay, or, at the very least bissexual.

And in the end of the day, complicated racionalization aside, for most of the audience, Tina was a character who was written as a female who would disguise herself at whoever she wanted to be. So, for the general audience, the message was that Tina was gay. I can't say for sure, because I am not a writer or producer of the show, if their intent in writing the episode was what you believed it to be. I would assume not, because that is not how shape shifter are usually portrayed in fiction. Theories aside, what fundamentally matters is the intent behind the writing AND how the audience sees it. If we can take this thread as an example, it seems that the majority here saw Tina simply as being gay. I can't, however, presume that was the intent of the writer, but I do believe it was.

[Freawaru]

She was pretty clear that she chose to change herself into male forms because she wanted to be whoever Lana wanted. It was never about what she wanted. It was about fooling Lana, so that she could be with her. If Lana happened to be gay, Tina would have chosen a female form. Originally, she wanted to *be* Lana, and take over her life, because she saw herself as a woman. Ultimately all her instincts were about what our society made women into, to the point of "changing her identity" to be whoever Lana wanted to be with. Her dialogue with Clark, in Visage made it clear that it was all about Lana, and not about her.

Okay, sounds plausible to me. But that would mean that Tina did not have an "identity" in the sense of male or female in the first place. It would mean that she was neither straight, nor gay, nor bi. She was obsessed with Lana and if Lana had changed her sex and become male Tina would still be obsessed with her - or rather him in this case.

Regardless, Tina knew she was Tina, and her identity was her female form. Whenever she wanted to confront a person who was in her way, including Whitney's mom, Pete and Clark, in Visage, she would turn back to her original form. That was her personal identity.

As for Tina is was all about not being her original identity I doubt that. I think she only shifted into that form because she wanted those she confronts to know who she was. Not in the sense of being female but in the sense of being Tina, the shapeshifter. By wanting to be somebody else Tina's identity shifted from being Tina, the girl, to Tina, the shapeshifter. Shapeshifting in front of someone showed that new identity to them.

As she said to Clark, she saw Lana's action in X-Ray as a rejection of her, Tina. Had her seen it as Lana accepting her, she would have tried to be with Lana as herself, but she wanted so badly to be with Lana, that she didn't care if she had to disguise herself as someone else to be with her. Becoming a male to be with a female was never the issue. It was a means to an end, which was to be with Lana.

And that means that even Lana's sex was irrelevant to her. Tina was not attracted to Lana because she was female but because she was Lana.

So, if the definition of self is your own identity, and as your own identity you are a female,

I guess we are leaving the original poster's question here but for the record, no, the definition of "self" does not include male or female in my opinion. As played with in several fiction stories one still remains oneself if one shifts one's self into a computer or robot for example (like that scientist who moved his self into Data in ST: TNG).

The definition of "identity" is not the same as the definition of "self". One can change one's identity, new name, new occupation, new sex (even change the DNA in some science fiction stories) but not one's self.

And in the end of the day, complicated racionalization aside, for most of the audience, Tina was a character who was written as a female who would disguise herself at whoever she wanted to be. So, for the general audience, the message was that Tina was gay.

I would not see this forum as a good representation of the audience but I am also pretty sure that a lot of watchers did not think about this anyway.

I can't say for sure, because I am not a writer or producer of the show, if their intent in writing the episode was what you believed it to be. I would assume not, because that is not how shape shifter are usually portrayed in fiction.

Sylar in the TV series "Heroes" was able to change his DNA by it. Odo in ST: DS9 was an alien. We never learn if the "Founders" actually have a sex or if they just chose a specific sex when dealing with other species (or Odo, who was raised with this concept).

Theories aside, what fundamentally matters is the intent behind the writing AND how the audience sees it. If we can take this thread as an example, it seems that the majority here saw Tina simply as being gay. I can't, however, presume that was the intent of the writer, but I do believe it was.

Well, if I was a writer and my audience would actually start to think these kind of things through (like on this thread) I would consider my job done.

[DJ Doena]

Okay, sounds plausible to me. But that would mean that Tina did not have an "identity" in the sense of male or female in the first place. It would mean that she was neither straight, nor gay, nor bi. She was obsessed with Lana and if Lana had changed her sex and become male Tina would still be obsessed with her - or rather him in this case.

There are enough stalkers out there who are obsessed with one single person. Are you really implying that they have no sexual identity because they are obsessed with one person?

[Freawaru]

There are enough stalkers out there who are obsessed with one single person. Are you really implying that they have no sexual identity because they are obsessed with one person?

Depends. If that obsession is not sexual, the sexual identity obviously does not play a role. Say, Lionel is obsessed with Friedrich Nietzsche, a male, does this affect Lionel's sexual identity? I think not.

But to all those Lex stalkers oviously the fact that he was not only rich but also male played a role.

In this case the question is if Tina's obsessive attraction to Lana was sexual in origin. And to me it didn't look like it. I mean, she wanted to BE her. Do humans want to BE the person they are sexually attracted to?

[liana]

In this case the question is if Tina's obsessive attraction to Lana was sexual in origin. And to me it didn't look like it. I mean, she wanted to BE her. Do humans want to BE the person they are sexually attracted to?

In my eyes, at least, the writers changed the nature of Tina's obsession from X-Ray, when she first appeared to Visage. At some point, they decided it was cooler to make Tina wanting to be WITH Lana, instead of her wanting to BE her. In fact, the shift she went through from one episode to another is what bothers me, because her attraction to her, when she was first introduced wasn't meant to be sexual. It bothers me that they portrayed her attraction becoming sexual when she became completely insane. I don't like the implications that could come from it.

If Tina had been introduced, since the beginning as being sexually attracted to Lana BEFORE she went insane, I wouldn't have any problem with it.

[Freawaru]

In my eyes, at least, the writers changed the nature of Tina's obsession from X-Ray, when she first appeared to Visage. At some point, they decided it was cooler to make Tina wanting to be WITH Lana, instead of her wanting to BE her. In fact, the shift she went through from one episode to another is what bothers me, because her attraction to her, when she was first introduced wasn't meant to be sexual.

That was why I didn't think it was so in "Visage". Tina always said she wanted "the perfect life". And somehow this always had to do with Lana. By being Lana's best friend, by looking like her, wearing the same clothes, the same hairstyle, by BEING her, by being her boy-friend. Lana didn't seem to understand why Tina thought Lana had a perfect life, Lana always considered her life anything but perfect.

It bothers me that they portrayed her attraction becoming sexual when she became completely insane. I don't like the implications that could come from it.

Neither do I so I simply choose the other option as we cannot be sure either way.

[liana]

That was why I didn't think it was so in "Visage". Tina always said she wanted "the perfect life". And somehow this always had to do with Lana. By being Lana's best friend, by looking like her, wearing the same clothes, the same hairstyle, by BEING her, by being her boy-friend. Lana didn't seem to understand why Tina thought Lana had a perfect life, Lana always considered her life anything but perfect.

Neither do I so I simply choose the other option as we cannot be sure either way.

And yet, in Visage, Tina also said : "But I love her, and I'll do anything to be with her." She, herself, said she was "in love" with Lana while talking to Clark. At some point, she decided her obsession with Lana wasn't merely wanting to be BE her any more, and instead it was "love". Tina came to the realization, at some point, that what she felt towards Lana was sexual, and was "love", and she believed it to the moment she died. Her last words to Clark was her begging him to "take care of Lana".

We can question Tina's conclusion by saying that she only believed herself to be in love with Lana due to her insane desire to takeover Lana's life, be it by becoming Lana or by becoming her boyfriend, of course. Still it doesn't change the fact that the character died believing herself to be "in love" with Lana, and that enough has disturbing implications, IMO.

[Freawaru]

I am still not convinced. There are many kinds of love and only one is sexual. One can love one's parents, siblings, children, friends, pets, work, students, and so on. It is even doubtfull that the sexual love is real love and not only desire. Clearly, if there is only sexual desire between two people a lasting relationship is not possible. However, I am not sure that Tina was sane enough to see the difference anyway.

Just one last point, all the other times we see gay characters appearing they are not treated any different than straight ones. If Tina was supposed to be some kind of moral message I would expect it to be stronger. Personally, I liked how they dealt with the subject in Buffy. After several seasons Willow decided she was gay and a few episodes later everybody was used to her girlfriend now being part of the team.

[liana]

I am still not convinced. There are many kinds of love and only one is sexual. One can love one's parents, siblings, children, friends, pets, work, students, and so on. It is even doubtfull that the sexual love is real love and not only desire. Clearly, if there is only sexual desire between two people a lasting relationship is not possible. However, I am not sure that Tina was sane enough to see the difference anyway.

Just one last point, all the other times we see gay characters appearing they are not treated any different than straight ones. If Tina was supposed to be some kind of moral message I would expect it to be stronger. Personally, I liked how they dealt with the subject in Buffy. After several seasons Willow decided she was gay and a few episodes later everybody was used to her girlfriend now being part of the team.

Willow wasn't supposed to be "gay" originally, you know. She was written as bissexual. The vampire Willow, who was supposed to be "her" evil form had a relationship with Vampire Xander and was still interested in women. Even after Tara, there were moments where Willow admitted her interest in men, occasionally. There is one episode, when they hear Giles singing and playing guitar, where Willow admits she always found him attractive and used to have a "crush" on him. In season 5, when Dracula is introduced, Willow admits he is "hot", and immediately denies it, when Tara reacts hurtly "You thought Dracula was hot"?

In several interviews, before Tara died, Joss Whedom used to say that he always saw Willow as in love with the soul, not the body, regardless of it being inside a man's body or a woman's body. However, after Tara was killed, and after being harassed by several gay fans that considered his portrayal of Tara's death as "damaging", he changed his mind and decided to make Willow definitely "gay", and drop the bissexual angle for good. Therefore, after Tara's death we got Willow stating every other episode that she was "gay now", and even falling in love with a guy under a spell and trying to change him into a "woman" to re inforce the change of sexuality.

Back to Smallville, I don't think Tina was supposed to be a 'moral message' of any sort. I think her story was a consequence of the way the writers and producers saw the character of Lana Lang. The producers stated, more than one time, that Lana's role, in Smallville was to be the "object of desire". In their point of view, every character was supposed to either want to be with Lana or want to be her. And that was more blatanty in the meteor freaks.

Honestly, I think the writers/producers wanted to bring back the Whitney/Lana/Clark triangle for one episode, and wanted it to bring it to an extreme. However, they still didn't want to change the fact that he left Smallville to become a hero, befriending Clark in the process and according to Lana, had even moved on becoming her best friend. So, having him back, at that point, as a nemesis to Clark would be a regression. So, they remembered they had a shape shifter in the show, and in their minds it must have been a natural progression to have Tina go from wanting to be Lana to being in love with Lana.

I really don't think they stopped to think about the implications any more than Joss Whedon did think about people believing he made Willow evil in the end of season 6 because she was "gay" (which, by the way, she wasn't. Not really).

[Brian63]

In just skimming this thread I did not see a mention of Abigail in season 4's Facade, where she kissed a blindfolded Lana. I don't recall her sexuality being explored beyond that, however.

Brian

[DJ Doena]

In just skimming this thread I did not see a mention of Abigail in season 4's Facade, where she kissed a blindfolded Lana. I don't recall her sexuality being explored beyond that, however.

Abigail made out with the jock who named her Scabby Abby. It was only on her mother's orders that she kissed Lana so she could infuse her with the stuff that made people hallucinating.

[Freawaru]

In several interviews, before Tara died, Joss Whedom used to say that he always saw Willow as in love with the soul, not the body, regardless of it being inside a man's body or a woman's body. However, after Tara was killed, and after being harassed by several gay fans that considered his portrayal of Tara's death as "damaging", he changed his mind and decided to make Willow definitely "gay", and drop the bissexual angle for good.

I recall Willow as always also being interested in men - after all she had had a chrush on Xander for years before the series started, and even with her stating otherwise I just took it for a conscious decision to look for a relationship like with Tara again instead of with a man (like Xander). I mean, a successfull relationship takes more than desire, rigtht?

I can't say I understand why gay should be better than bissexual.

Back to Smallville, I don't think Tina was supposed to be a 'moral message' of any sort. I think her story was a consequence of the way the writers and producers saw the character of Lana Lang. The producers stated, more than one time, that Lana's role, in Smallville was to be the "object of desire". In their point of view, every character was supposed to either want to be with Lana or want to be her. And that was more blatanty in the meteor freaks.

I agree with this. Lana had this odd effect on everybody around her. At times other characters mention it, Alicia for example and Lex mentions it to Jason. I have been wondering if it is some kind of unconscious meteor power of Lanas (Chloe is infected, why shouldn't Lana be), but I doubt that she didn't test if she was meteor infected when she had the chance. I know I would have.

Honestly, I think the writers/producers wanted to bring back the Whitney/Lana/Clark triangle for one episode, and wanted it to bring it to an extreme. However, they still didn't want to change the fact that he left Smallville to become a hero, befriending Clark in the process and according to Lana, had even moved on becoming her best friend. So, having him back, at that point, as a nemesis to Clark would be a regression. So, they remembered they had a shape shifter in the show, and in their minds it must have been a natural progression to have Tina go from wanting to be Lana to being in love with Lana.

I agree.

I really don't think they stopped to think about the implications any more than Joss Whedon did think about people believing he made Willow evil in the end of season 6 because she was "gay" (which, by the way, she wasn't. Not really).

It is well known that storywriting is an art. This means, that at times story and characters are beyond the authors conscious decisions or any kind of "messages" and "morals" they might want to send. Personally, I think this to be the more fascinating aspect of art than all the messages stories and characters are supposes to give. Just keep story and characters self consistent and I am happy.