So now Rick Flagg is a stooge of Chloe

[deanropi]

Made no sense why they wouldn't of just killed her.

[Billy Jor-El]

This part of the episode actually made me laugh out loud..

KNEEL BEFORE CHLOE SULLIVAN

Look at the quote under my avatar I'd be her stooge anyday Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

[Estro-gen X]

She was basically canon-Amanda Waller in this episode, only it would have been more interesting with Waller. If we didn't already see Waller people would be saying she was Smallville's Waller.

[SVFancross]

I'm really going to be pissed if Clark finds out that Chloe was working with Flagg & just blows it off. That would mean that he believes in the ends justifying the means, which is everything he's against.

Didn't he find out in this episode (the whole missiles/blackmail bit?).

So this means:
- Chloe DID get tortured by the Suicide Squad and apparently withstood it enough to earn Flagg's respect (per Shield)
- She didn't reign them in until after Ambush and she blackmailed them. This "left as an exercise for the student's offscreenville fanwank" is IMO unambiguously crappy way for the show to handle it.

Now WHY would they follow Chloe beyond Blackmail? Well... BIG FANWANK, NO EXCUSES, THE PRODUCERS PUT US IN THIS POSITION....perhaps Chloe's clever enough to be useful in accomplishing their goals. In the VR I noticed Chloe used non-lethal force (she shot one guy on his right side -- avoiding vital organs and another in the kneecap --- not pretty but both would were not humans, they were programs and the point I'm making is her instinct is still non-lethal). The guys on the floor in the lab did not have blood so I'm voting "knocked out". Deadshot killed the two who were going to kill Chloe. Grey, but self-defense is pretty close there. So... it's possible she's trying to keep them to non-lethal. The trade is they get her mad hacker skillz and strategic planning experience with this kind of major issue. I mean really, what did Waller bring? Although, Waller's cutthroat attitude was entertaining, I don't want Chloe to have that.

Ultimately these dudes are going to exist. So, Chloe is trying the reform route -- isn't that what Clark did to the Zod-squad? Unlike the aliens, they are meta-humans or badasses that are NOT going to become librarians. So... jail them?

Now, having said ALL this -- I hate the plot line. I don't want her tied to the Suicide Squad at all. BUT, I can see the angle they are taking -- it cleans up an open plot line that they created just a tiny bit. It doesn't however, tie to comics.

We'll see if they leave her in charge or something else happens.

As for just killing her, that's simple. She could have her blackmail package stored electronically, ready to be sent -- dependent upon her checking in and stopping it from being sent. If she dies, off it goes. Since they know torturing her does no good, it's a quasi-reasonable approach. But again, I think the angle is that she is allowing them to do stuff they want to do, contributing with her skillz, and only asking for non-lethal where possible.

It's a massive WRITER-FORCED FANWANK but it's what I've come up with.

[umm]

I'm really going to be pissed if Clark finds out that Chloe was working with Flagg & just blows it off. That would mean that he believes in the ends justifying the means, which is everything he's against.

He did find out, and he was fine, you did watch their last scene together, right?
She actually told him how she blackmailed Flagg into taking orders from her ever since she was taken capive by his men! I mean everything else is implied, he may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he is by no means dumb, he can imagine what kind of jobs Flagg did for her, and since he didn't have any critique, we the fans, can assume that he is fine with it!

[SVFancross]

ever since she was taken capive by his men!

I think it was after Ambush.

[xrayvision]

He did find out, and he was fine, you did watch their last scene together, right?
She actually told him how she blackmailed Flagg into taking orders from her ever since she was taken capive by his men! I mean everything else is implied, he may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he is by no means dumb, he can imagine what kind of jobs Flagg did for her, and since he didn't have any critique, we the fans, can assume that he is fine with it!

Well, if you look when I posted that, it was midway into the episode before that final scene, which did end up really pissing me off.

If Clark is fine with it, then he is severely flawed and nothing like the Clark Kent of the comics who refuses to believe that the ends justify the means. After all, Flagg & Deadshot killed people to save Chloe. This wasn't like Lex shooting Roger Nixon to save Jonathan at the spur of the moment. This was something that was premeditated where secrets were kept when they didn't have to be & people died. Plus Clark never found out about Lex's true relationship with Nixon & if he would have, you could believe that their friendship would have ended right then & there.

A scene like this where Clark/Superman is kept in the dark about things & ends up in some Matrix-wannabe program only for someone else who had been keeping secrets from him to break him free while Clark/Superman turns a blind eye to the tactics used (which would have fatalities) would never ever happen in the comics. It makes me sick watching a character who's supposed to be this show's version of Superman involved in such a disgusting plot.

[4Clana]

So Clark is OK with Chloe siding with Flagg (not to mention after what Warp did by blowing up the anti-Blur headquarters). I'm sure he found out about the guys that Flagg & Deadshot gunned down & killed. He's OK with that too. This is nothing but an assassination of Clark's character just so he could bow down to the altar of Chloe.

Yep, Jimmy, Davis, Oliver, Clark, Flagg, Chloe has all the balls. She really is the worst written character. Tells you how low a character has gotten that they have to write her trampling every character in order to look somewhat good in comparison.

[It's all about Faith]

I was shaking my head at that last scene in the livingroom too. Clark Kent/ Superman would never be okay with any of this. It is obvious that he is still not ready....

[LoD]

He wasn't exactly OK with it. He started in to lecture her, but Chloe basically told him not to start. (He should know better than to back off, though, because she always does this and, IMO, always does it when she's doing something that is going to backfire on them all.) I think that this is not the end of that particular conflict.

As for the government agents, I'm not sure how to take it. Unless we saw them burning bodies, even people who got shot on screen may have just been disabled (wounded, but not killed). Gunshots on this show are nothing (see: Luthor, Lex). And Chloe says that Tess is giving the government agents a taste of their cyber medicine or something like that. Were they plugged into the machine or was Chloe punning? And if they were plugged in, was it simply to ascertain their weaknesses and use those weaknesses against them later (as was the original intent of the VRA)? Or were they getting brainwashed (in which case, the show should remember MM can wipe memories minus the high-tech gadgetry)? I don't think they were simply imprisoned there because that wouldn't make sense either. Even the VRA didn't intend to use the technology as a permanent prison after all.

In short, I don't think we're meant to take it that Chloe and co. killed all the government agents or imprisoned them forever in virtual reality or that Clark was OK with it if they did. It was just very badly directed and somewhat sloppily written.

[Lady Di]

^^ they were killed, there were bullets flying and people down. The VRA were wearing vests, so they weren't just wounded if they were down. There was definite killing going on.

I hated this episode for a lot of reasons, but the reasons xrayvision is stating are the ones that make me want to hit the writers over the head with a blunt object. I'm so very disappointed.

[kneel4justice]

I'm okay with it, I was thrilled Chloe could pull something like that off.

[LoD]

^^ they were killed, there were bullets flying and people down. The VRA were wearing vests, so they weren't just wounded if they were down. There was definite killing going on.

I hated this episode for a lot of reasons, but the reasons xrayvision is stating are the ones that make me want to hit the writers over the head with a blunt object. I'm so very disappointed.

I understand what you're saying but this is the show that had Lex survive a direct shot to the head and had him back up walking by the end. Again, unless we saw actual confirmation that those who were shot died (burning bodies, etc), I think the show leaves itself a loophole. I'm not saying that's good story-telling (I think the director just wanted a cool fight scene) but I don't think we're meant to assume a bloodbath occurred either.

[Lady Di]

^^ To me, that's wishfull thinking. As I said, I saw people who were wearing vests getting shot and going down. What am I supposed to believe?

We'll probably have to agree to disagree though, I do respect your opinion on the matter.

[HopeforTomorrow]

If Clark is fine with it, then he is severely flawed and nothing like the Clark Kent of the comics who refuses to believe that the ends justify the means. After all, Flagg & Deadshot killed people to save Chloe. This wasn't like Lex shooting Roger Nixon to save Jonathan at the spur of the moment. This was something that was premeditated where secrets were kept when they didn't have to be & people died. Plus Clark never found out about Lex's true relationship with Nixon & if he would have, you could believe that their friendship would have ended right then & there.

A scene like this where Clark/Superman is kept in the dark about things & ends up in some Matrix-wannabe program only for someone else who had been keeping secrets from him to break him free while Clark/Superman turns a blind eye to the tactics used (which would have fatalities) would never ever happen in the comics. It makes me sick watching a character who's supposed to be this show's version of Superman involved in such a disgusting plot.

Man, I'm glad that you brought these points up. I'll probably wait until tomorrow to rewatch it (torture myself) to catch anymore details to re-enforce my opinion that Collateral is one of the worst episodes of the series (on par with Power IMO). I missed watching Season 8 live, so Collateral is the first episode that I've watched live that made me feel completely disgusted throughout.