So now Rick Flagg is a stooge of Chloe

[BadToad]

I don't think they thought anyone would take it as Clark putting the VRA soldiers on ice. They just wanted a quick way to wrap it up and show why our heroes aren't more concerned for their lives in the next episode.

And apparently they aren't so much concerned with the lives of others either. I always thought that one of the things that seperates the good guys from the bad guys is that they care more for others, to include the bad guys. If the show is endorsing a ends-justifies-the-means mentality (and clearly here, and with Slade, they did), then I'm not entirely sure what we're left with as a message, particularly about SV's "Superman".

But, TBH, this isn't a new problem for SV writing. This has been going on for a while. Its just that in this last season, you'd think they would want to clean up their act a bit, and articulate a clearer and more just POV and direction for our Superman.

But then again, I thought they'd want to do a lot in this last season that they clearly have no interest in

[LoD]

And apparently they aren't so much concerned with the lives of others either. I always thought that one of the things that seperates the good guys from the bad guys is that they care more for others, to include the bad guys. If the show is endorsing a ends-justifies-the-means mentality (and clearly here, and with Slade, they did), then I'm not entirely sure what we're left with as a message, particularly about SV's "Superman".

Oh, now I'm thinking back to Jonathan saving Nixon in Vortex and that makes me sad.

I think the show tries to have it both ways. It wants to hold Clark up to the standards of Jesus, but bends over backwards to justify the moral pragmatism of Chloe, Lana, and Lex. I think they think they are being complex. Instead, it can come across as inconsistent and muddled.

Clark putting Slade in the PZ was bad set-up, IMO. It came across as excessive when it could have been just as easily justified. The shootout was a directorial mistake, IMO, because the director wanted a "cool" fight but didn't bother to tweak it to fit the morality of the show's lead. And I think the ending was just sloppy.

As I said, I don't fault people for arguing that stuff like this says bad things about the show's themes. I just choose to see past it, I guess, because I chalk it up to problems with craft more than anything else.

But, TBH, this isn't a new problem for SV writing. This has been going on for a while. Its just that in this last season, you'd think they would want to clean up their act a bit, and articulate a clearer and more just POV and direction for our Superman.

But then again, I thought they'd want to do a lot in this last season that they clearly have no interest in

I'm probably more forgiving, but I agree in general.

[Bizarrolover]

Or whatever. To me, it reads like technical errors in plot construction rather than intentional attempts at being morally ambiguous. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong or anything. I think the shoddy craftsmanship leaves them open to that kind of interpretation. I just don't think it is what they wanted to convey on screen.

I understand what you say, but I see it more as validating Chloe in her departure arc. These guys are (supposedly) professional writers and what they show on screen is what they are tryig to convey. When they want to do ambiguous, they do ambiguos, like in season 8, when they wanted to portray the Chlavis as ambigous. But in this case, there wasn't any ambiguity regarding Clark. Chloe shared her shady morality with him and he agreed.

BTW, I liked your Indiana Jones reference. I loved that scene it portrays perfectly how the system works. Whenever a bureoucrat says they are 'taking care of things' that scenes come to my mind.

[xrayvision]

He wasn't exactly OK with it. He started in to lecture her, but Chloe basically told him not to start. (He should know better than to back off, though, because she always does this and, IMO, always does it when she's doing something that is going to backfire on them all.) I think that this is not the end of that particular conflict.

As for the government agents, I'm not sure how to take it. Unless we saw them burning bodies, even people who got shot on screen may have just been disabled (wounded, but not killed). Gunshots on this show are nothing (see: Luthor, Lex). And Chloe says that Tess is giving the government agents a taste of their cyber medicine or something like that. Were they plugged into the machine or was Chloe punning? And if they were plugged in, was it simply to ascertain their weaknesses and use those weaknesses against them later (as was the original intent of the VRA)? Or were they getting brainwashed (in which case, the show should remember MM can wipe memories minus the high-tech gadgetry)? I don't think they were simply imprisoned there because that wouldn't make sense either. Even the VRA didn't intend to use the technology as a permanent prison after all.

In short, I don't think we're meant to take it that Chloe and co. killed all the government agents or imprisoned them forever in virtual reality or that Clark was OK with it if they did. It was just very badly directed and somewhat sloppily written.

I think the VRA's goal was to be able to control Clark and perhaps the others as their soldiers so they could get them to do their herowork while at the same time not having freedom to make their own choices. So they wanted the heroes as their puppets.

As for the message we're supposed to take, whether or not they intended it to be that Chloe is siding with killers, that's what I personally did get out of it. I'm betting they just wanted us to forget the details & be OK with it as Clark was. Clark being OK with it is another message I got out of the episode since he wasn't vocal about not being OK with it if he actually wasn't. By now, I would expect Clark to be vocal about things that Chloe was involved with that he believed would blow up in their face.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

I understand what you're saying but this is the show that had Lex survive a direct shot to the head and had him back up walking by the end. Again, unless we saw actual confirmation that those who were shot died (burning bodies, etc), I think the show leaves itself a loophole. I'm not saying that's good story-telling (I think the director just wanted a cool fight scene) but I don't think we're meant to assume a bloodbath occurred either.

I get what you're saying (I always refer to Fracture when people start questioning my suggestion to bring Morgan Edge back as the leader of Intergang). But Lex is a big time character (as is Morgan Edge regarding my suggestion). Usually when unnamed characters get shot & live on a TV show, they are seen moving around or getting back up. Had any of them been canon characters I could understand. That's why I think there's always a possibility to bring back Morgan Edge, Amanda Waller, or other canon characters from the comics.

----- Added 24 Minutes later -----

This season has butchered Clark in several aspects. He got rid of Slade by sending him to the Phantom Zone, then he says 'good' when Chloe so nonchalantly tells him that she has all the VRA guards plugged to the virtual realty to protect his secret. I wonder how long can that last and how long Clark will be OK with it. It will probably be forgotten by the next episode and those guards will lay comatose forever.

I don't know much about Comic book Clark, but season 9 Clark wouldn't have approved of that. I hate that Clark's beliefs about people's integrity had been lowered to Chloe's who is an end justify the means character. I think the problem is, the writers had screwed up this so much, so many of the bad guys are aware now of Clark's identity, that it can't be fixed without a massive mindwipe. And then we will be faced with the moral dilemma: is it OK to selectively erase people's memories even if the intentions are good? It has been done more than once on this show. I know TPTB are expecting us to forget about this VRA people that already know about him as the season progresses, but as I won't forget, this will always be a major plothole for me.

Rather than have Clark be OK with it, they should have shown him not being OK with it & for the resolution to come later by revealing that these VRA agents are all affected by Darkseid so that once Darkseid's presence is rid of by Clark & his influence on everyone he affected is gone, so will the effects on Slade, all the VRA agents, and those in the public who are affected by it along with their memories. I thought this is where they were going with this plot. I thought a huge portion of the public who are anti-heroes are that way because of Darkseid's & Godfrey's influence. Like those people who attacked Oliver after he stopped the mugger. This season's plot is so confusing that nothing is clear. Doing this would tie the VRA plot to the Darkseid plot, which we know people like Slade are tied to both. So why not other VRA members as well? We know General Lane isn't affected by Darkseid because he's a long time member of the military but has a mind of his own. Trotter should end up being affected by Godfrey & Darkseid but not a minion of Darkseid's like Desaad, Granny, Slade & whoever is possessing Godfrey now.

But even if they do this, it still won't make it OK that Clark turned a blind eye to Chloe's activities. Like I said earlier, imagine back in Vortex had Clark learned the truth about Lex's involvement with Roger Nixon after Lex killed Nixon. There's no way they would have remained friends because all the choices Lex made caused all the trouble that happened along with Nixon's death. Here, Chloe's subversion, secrets & methods ended up with the kidnapping of the heroes & the deaths of all those VRA agents. And one has to assume Chloe & the Suicide Squad knew that the VRA set up that trap for the heroes before Carter's funeral & could have easily warned Clark about it. Otherwise there would be no way she would know that they were kidnapped & were hooked up to that Matrix-wannabe program.

----- Added 31 Minutes later -----

Yes it stinks, and what stinks the most is that Clark didn't object, he just nodded and said 'good'. Clark is supposed to be above that, he should have objected. I hate that the show is giving up everything his character stands for, his beliefs and strong morality to serve some crappy Chloe is badass plot.

Also, I don't believe in the non funeral, no death thing. Those guards were shot, period. Maybe they died, maybe the didn't, but they were shot anyway. And when someone is shot, there can be severe injuries, even amputations. I didn't like how the whole thing was handled and how the 'heroes' were so OK with this.

And we also should consider who was doing the shooting. Flagg & Deadshot had no problem killing people. I doubt they would stand by a no fatal shots policy. And I doubt Chloe even has the morals left (after what we saw her do in Roulette & many other episodes) to ask them not to kill anyone.

[SVFancross]

I understand what you say, but I see it more as validating Chloe in her departure arc.

What about the "don't ask, don't tell" policy for Curtis Knox with Martian Manhunter? I see it as a convenience, not intentionally validating Chloe.

[xrayvision]

I agree with everything you're saying but in regards to serious injuries, it was self defense and they would've been killed. Clark has more than once done something that should mortally wound someone such as strangling someone, throwing, punching, or slapping someone halfway across the room into walls, tables, etc.

But I think in Clark's case, he knows how much force to use not to kill or seriously injure someone even though at times it seems like his pushes/throws look like they would break someone's back. But early on, we saw with Jeremy Creek getting up from such a push, so I think even though they're overdoing the force used by Clark, I don't think it's supposed to seriously hurt anyone. Even Andy Connors in Precipice who was thrown through a police car didn't have real injuries. However when people like Eric Summers while having Clark's powers & throwing Clark on top of that car in Leech or Byron Moore when he threw Pete threw the windshield of the parked car use force, they show that these characters don't have the control that Clark uses even though visually the force they use appears no different than what Clark uses.

So I'd say the force Clark uses to push or throw people is done for the dramatic effect but doesn't hurt those people.

[Dyanara]

I totally missed Clark being ok with lax morals in putting the VRA into virtual reality. I swear Clark this season is just weak and pathetic, first he sends a human to PZ now this crap.

[~*Lois & Clark Fan*~]

He wasn't a human, he was a darkseid minion who had been overcome by the darkness.

I think Clark has been the best this season than any other season. He's FINALLY matured and is forceful

[Alicia Chipy]

So now Chloe has Clark,Ollie AND Rick Flagg by the B***s?
Now theres an empowered woman!

[ox007]

Call me BDE (big dumb earthling) but I didn't realise all of this until I have read this thread and posts! It is really horrible and very unsupermanly for Clark to accept the SS methods (SS - abbreviation like for the german unit during WWII) and Chloe blackmailing them is also off big time! Wow this episode really didn't make any sense other than boosting Chloe up and making her the hero of the story and her using the SS that kills government agents and blowing up facilities is apparently OK for the writers but even for Clark?? He should have told her off this time, but of course he didn't...

[Tekken Force]

I hope we haven't seen the last of Flagg and co. And what the hell happened to plastique? I thought it was a given we'd be seeing her again, but haven't heard anything.

[Cloning Blues]

I don't actually have too many problems with Flag deciding to ally with Chloe. Here's why:

If all Chloe had done was shut down Flag's missiles, threatened him with the police, and said, "you work for me now," I agree with those who are saying that he would have said, "screw you, I have a teleporter, a mad bomber, and a sniper, I can keep my terror campaign going." It would have been harder for him, but her probably would have persevered. But that's not what Chloe did. She shut down his missiles, threatened him with the police and said "Wanna help me take down the VRA?"

Flag hates the VRA. His whole purpose has been to screw with them. So when someone--who's already proven their ability by taking down his missile system--offers to help him do just that, I think he'd agree to at least check it out. As for the killing thing: I can't say for sure with Deadshot, but Flag is clearly aiming for nonlethal areas on the soldiers. It would probably have been part of his and Chloe's deal, and since he's getting to help the superheroes he fanboys so much, it doesn't seem too out of character for him to agree to keep the violence to a minimum.

As for why Chloe would recruit the Squad: she's desperate. Clark and the JLA are locked up by the VRA and she has to get them out pronto. Problem is, the VRA's little virtual reality thing is a closed system. Please note, Chloe has to access it from its own mainframe. She needed superpowered muscle to get inside, and the Squad was her only option.

As for Clark not calling her on it...he worked with Lionel for years despite not really trusting the guy. He's met Brainiac 5. Clark's may not like it, but he's been willing to accept for a while now that sometimes you have to work with unsavoury people.