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I think Crowley is a big liar / Samuel's deal

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mkn
    Only in this episode, were we told that it took several angels to bring Dean out. I think that Crowley really did take out Sams soul, and they were saying how many angels it took justto show how powerful he is, that he could do that, as he is the king of hell. I'm not liking it, but i think this is going to be it.
    There's no way any demon can be as powerful as one angel, though.

    Sure, Alastair was able to beat up Castiel pretty badly, but fighting and getting a soul out with ease are two different things.

    That's why I think Purgatory will have a back door into the ninth circle for Crowley to retrieve the soul.

    i think this works better, Raphael pulled Sam out, and wanted to posses him, because Lucifer, the most crooked Angel needed him, so Raphael would try to persuade sam he is a great angel, and wants to bring peace, and that he bought him back to be one with sam...
    Angels needing vessels are for a reason. There's no way Raphael can use Sam as a vessel as Raphael can't use the Winchesters' bloodline.

    I dont know, i mean supernatural is never a show for plotholes or anything, but Samuel coming back ?? and why does he have his soul... i hope we are just smart, and discovering this stuff before the show says yes it wasnt like this, he just tricked u.
    I think Samuel does have his soul, as Castiel even felt it, plus there isn't really a reason for Crowley to have Samuel's soul. Samuel can easily be blackmailed because of a grandchild's soul.

    Since we are only on episode 7, maybe this really is how it is, and they are going to expand greatly.
    Oh, I have a feeling it will be expanded. Season six seems like a parallel with seasons one and four in certain ways, so I see another big reveal coming in episodes 10 and/or 16.

    Also, as great an actor Crawley is, im just not... buying this great evil, i want him to have a new vessel.. to get to the next level.. robert knepper ooooooh he gives man kind the creeps
    Sheppard does an incredible job and I think he just hasn't been given enough to work with on being this awesomely-evil character, but the storyline has it working up to that moment. Just wait until Crowley ends up killing someone huge(my idea: Death).

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Anno_Domini
      There's no way any demon can be as powerful as one angel, though.
      Thats what i think too, but i think what they are saying is that as he is the King Of Hell, he has influence on everything in hell- he does have the juice, because its his kingdom...



      Originally posted by Anno_Domini
      Angels needing vessels are for a reason. There's no way Raphael can use Sam as a vessel as Raphael can't use the Winchesters' bloodline.
      Lucifer went into Nick, and Castiel is fine in Jimmy, who was just a good ol religous man.. so it could happen, i mean the lack of soul could make the blood line irrelevant.. because the soul isnt going to be inside, its just a meatsack now..


      Originally posted by Anno_Domini
      I think Samuel does have his soul, as Castiel even felt it, plus there isn't really a reason for Crowley to have Samuel's soul. Samuel can easily be blackmailed because of a grandchild's soul.
      Misunderstanding, i mean why does Samuel have his soul, and Sam not.



      Originally posted by Anno_Domini
      Sheppard does an incredible job and I think he just hasn't been given enough to work with on being this awesomely-evil character, but the storyline has it working up to that moment. Just wait until Crowley ends up killing someone huge(my idea: Death).
      Yeah that would give it a notch up, but for now, i'm just not buying it.. I think he just seems to much like a delboy trotter.. i cant explain it, in the UK we have this show called only fools and horses, was a phenomena back in the day, with a short tubby peculiar dude who sells stuff on the market... only 50 seconds long http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvbQBf12xNY

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mkn
        Thats what i think too, but i think what they are saying is that as he is the King Of Hell, he has influence on everything in hell- he does have the juice, because its his kingdom...
        It may be his kingdom at the moment, but it's still a creation from God Himself(as someone had to know where to keep Death), so he may not be able to do anything with Lucifer's cage, unless through a "back door" such as my theory with Purgatory. Purgatory could be even more "free" than Hell itself, so that could be a reason why Crowley wants that territory.

        Lucifer went into Nick, and Castiel is fine in Jimmy, who was just a good ol religous man.. so it could happen, i mean the lack of soul could make the blood line irrelevant.. because the soul isnt going to be inside, its just a meatsack now..
        Nick was an exception because it was a Plan B vessel since Lucifer couldn't use another Winchester body. We will never know what made Nick so special and as far as we know, he could have been another special child from Azazel, but just not THE special child.

        And Castiel can only use the Novak bloodline, such as Castiel was about to use Jimmy's daughter as a vessel in "The Rapture".

        And sure, Sam doesn't have a soul, but Sam will still have to give his consent, but that's saying if Raphael was able to use Sam, which can't happen, but still, even without a soul, that wouldn't make Sam say "yes"; in fact, it'll just make Sam more hard-headed, imo.

        Misunderstanding, i mean why does Samuel have his soul, and Sam not.
        I still think that's because Sam's soul is still in the cage, something that Crowley isn't able to retrive and is bluffing over the fact that he has Sam's soul.

        Yeah that would give it a notch up, but for now, i'm just not buying it.. I think he just seems to much like a delboy trotter.. i cant explain it, in the UK we have this show called only fools and horses, was a phenomena back in the day, with a short tubby peculiar dude who sells stuff on the market... only 50 seconds long http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvbQBf12xNY
        To each his own I suppose. I think he's a great actor for the character of Crowley. I could see him become a very evil character if given enough time. So far, he's only been seen as someone who can help the heroes, but right now, we may be seeing something showing of how evil Crowley is, or even more so, how much more evil he has become since he is the King of Hell now.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Anno_Domini
          But to bring BACK a demon, I don't think it's possible as it'll still show how useless the Colt is.
          I was about to mention this until I read it. So you're saying that if Lilith is in Purgatory, which sounds possible, Crowley just wants to rule it with her, but not bring her back to hell, since you don't think she could go back there because she's a dead demon, even though for Crowley to get what he wants he would have to enter Purgatory? If this is what you mean, then my guess is you're saying once Crowley finds Purgatory, he could go back & forth between hell & Purgatory but Lilith is stuck in Purgatory since she's a dead demon & "them's the rules".

          One question I have about this is why would God reward dead demons by having them placed in Purgatory, which is a much better place than hell? I assume all the laws about where souls go were made by God.

          I don't know what the benefits to such a story, where Lilith & Crowley rule Purgatory, would be. Unless you think their next step is to break into Heaven while the war is going on, if it is adjacent to Purgatory (which is something I question).

          If Crowley did pull Samuel's soul down, then I think he had to have help. My guess is if a deal is made by someone alive on Earth to bring someone who recently died back, like Dean did with Sam in All Hell Breaks Loose, then the rules are that the soul has to be released since it is the wish & free will of the person who made the deal (Dean in the case I listed). But for someone who was long dead, a demon could not pull them down from Heaven only to make a deal once the person pulled down is on Earth. I don't think demons have the power to do that like Ruby told Sam when he questioned her about which demon brought Dean back from hell back in season 4. That's why I think Crowley had help. I also think if demon's could pull souls down & then resurrect their bodies, they would have done that to John Winchester, knowing the leverage they would hold over his boys & they would have tremendous power over him by threatening to kill his boys.

          ----- Added 26 Minutes later -----

          Originally posted by Super-ville
          But was it ever said that a crossroads demon could only bring a soul back from hell? I mean, i wouldnt think that a demon would be able to mess around in Heaven, but what about Dean's deal in season 2? where was sam at that time? heaven or hell?
          I think either Sam's soul hadn't ascended to Heaven yet, or the "rules" say that if a living person on Earth, who has free will, makes a deal with a demon to bring someone who recently died (someone whose body hadn't decayed) back to life, then Heaven has to release the soul since it was made by a person of free will and in return the person who made the deal goes to hell at the end of the deal's terms; creating a balance. Dean had free will in All Hell Breaks Loose when he made that deal to bring Sam back. Sam's body hadn't started rotting yet. And if a body had been rotting & was badly ripped like Dean's was after the season 3 finale, a demon bringing them back would be impossible since they don't have the powers of resurrection. From Sam's account, he was brought back in a field (not Stull Cemetery in Lawrence, where he fell in) almost immediately after he fell into the cage when Lucifer was in him. So my guess is this was done to ensure his body wasn't damaged by any torture in hell. Oh and the "rules" I referred to are part of the same rules that say angels must have vessels to have significant power on Earth.

          and also, everyone seems deadset on the idea of Michael and Lucifer torturing sam in hell. i mean, we dont know what the cage is like. it could be just a box, or it could be like the chains that held dean in hell. who says they would be able to do anything at all in the high security box?
          Well, I'll say this...it's definitely a possibility. I don't think it's set in stone since it may take more time than the end of the season to turn him into a demon, or Sam's soul could be protected by Michael if Michael is still loyal to God. But I think it would make for one hell (no pun intended) of a storyline for Sam's soul to return as a demon and for there to be 2 Sams. Especially if demon-Sam merges with his body, which would be a first since no other demon ever occupied their own original meatsuit. That merging of a demon into his own body may in itself be a new seal, or the one & only seal to release Lucifer & Michael in the final Supernatural Apocalypse.

          I think the only high security thing about the box is that Lucifer (nor Michael) can get out. As far as the activities inside the cage, my thoughts are anything goes. And in my theory (which is just a theory), the demon transformation process goes a lot faster when 1 archangel is doing the torturing instead of a demon, let alone the 2 strongest archangels that are down there & who last we saw were both pissed off at Sam & Dean. So any number of things could happen, but I'm hoping what I suggested happens because it could set up a spectacular plot & would be Sam's next hurdle after freeing his soul.
          Last edited by xrayvision; 11-07-2010, 12:39 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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          • #20
            Originally posted by xrayvision
            I was about to mention this until I read it. So you're saying that if Lilith is in Purgatory, which sounds possible, Crowley just wants to rule it with her, but not bring her back to hell, since you don't think she could go back there because she's a dead demon, even though for Crowley to get what he wants he would have to enter Purgatory? If this is what you mean, then my guess is you're saying once Crowley finds Purgatory, he could go back & forth between hell & Purgatory but Lilith is stuck in Purgatory since she's a dead demon & "them's the rules".

            One question I have about this is why would God reward dead demons by having them placed in Purgatory, which is a much better place than hell? I assume all the laws about where souls go were made by God.

            I don't know what the benefits to such a story, where Lilith & Crowley rule Purgatory, would be. Unless you think their next step is to break into Heaven while the war is going on, if it is adjacent to Purgatory (which is something I question).

            If Crowley did pull Samuel's soul down, then I think he had to have help. My guess is if a deal is made by someone alive on Earth to bring someone who recently died back, like Dean did with Sam in All Hell Breaks Loose, then the rules are that the soul has to be released since it is the wish & free will of the person who made the deal (Dean in the case I listed). But for someone who was long dead, a demon could not pull them down from Heaven only to make a deal once the person pulled down is on Earth. I don't think demons have the power to do that like Ruby told Sam when he questioned her about which demon brought Dean back from hell back in season 4. That's why I think Crowley had help. I also think if demon's could pull souls down & then resurrect their bodies, they would have done that to John Winchester, knowing the leverage they would hold over his boys & they would have tremendous power over him by threatening to kill his boys.
            Since I've been thinking it through, I do kinda think there is more than just Crowley wanting to be with Lilith. I am on the verge of thinking and hoping that Crowley and Lilith, as King and Queen of Purgatory, will try to wage war on a very weak Heaven. Now, I still believe that Crowley can't pull Lilith out of Purgatory, as, they "are the rules" so to speak, imo, but a dead-er version of Lilith can move from one "stage" of life, i.e. Purgatory and move unto another, which could be Heaven. God is still missing, Heaven is in chaos and this is a perfect time to be attacked, which, Crowley needs a queen and if Purgatory, in my mind, has a back door to Hell, then perhaps it has a back door to Heaven as well and they could try to destroy the angels themselves and have the demons finally rule Heaven and Earth all at once(I would think they would forget about Purgatory once they have Heaven under their control). If that is correct, then this season could be very reminiscent of Gods v Titans, imo.

            I think, for the most part, Death and the reapers decide where the souls go and et cetera. God is pretty much life and creation itself, so I don't think he plays a big hand within death, as for Supernatural's universe, and it is the reapers who are aware of where souls go, even with dead demons. Although, and I think I messed up in a earlier post, but I DO believe the Colt does wipe a demon out of its existence, such as Azazel; the Colt, imo, destroyed that demon through and through. Lilith, however, died by the hands of Sam, and I think it just blew her into the realm of Purgatory. She "died" enough to release Lucifer, but I don't think she went through the same intensity as the Colt does towards demons.

            And I am still thinking Crowley is able to bring Samuel out of Heaven, because it is in a state of turmoil and havoc. They wouldn't notice a demon creating a spell to bring Samuel down to Hell, but I do believe Samuel made some kind of deal once he was on Earth as there is more than just him working for Crowley. Him working for Crowley wasn't because of Sam's soul, imo, as Sam said Samuel found him, which I think means Samuel was back on Earth longer.

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            • #21
              I thought of something and typed it down on a different thread, but since we are talking about a Crowley/Lilith connection with this storyline, then I'll post it here as well:

              If it were to be Lilith, then I change my idea on that demons, after they "die", they go to Purgatory, but instead, Lilith, being the first demon, gets the priviledge to be sent to Purgatory after Sam killed her just because she can't die, or all of the monsters out there could perish as well. If she is the true mother of all monsters once she became the "Alpha" demon, then Crowley could try to reunite with her and as King and Queen, they could lead an army of all monsters and creatures from Purgatory to Heaven.

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              • #22
                Family matters

                I think Crowley has Sam soul because of the deal Lucifer made beforte he was possessed. He told Sam if I jump into the whole you win. I think Sam's soul was released when he jumped in leaving his body in Hell outside the cage. Crowley let out his body. I think Sam's soul is in Prugatory. I also think Mary's Soul is in prugatory. If he where in Hell John would have pulled her out. I think The Alpha vamp gave us this clue when he said all ghosts and monsters go to Prugatory.

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