I think Crowley is a big liar / Samuel's deal

[xrayvision]

Even though he's the current king of hell, I think Crowley is lying his ass off. I don't think he is able to get Sam's soul out from the cage even if he wanted. Castiel himself said it would take someone with a whole lot of muscle. He said that multiple angels had to storm hell to free Dean back in Lazarus. And we also know from Supernatural's mythos that the weakest angel is stronger than the most powerful demon, so if Castiel can't break Sam's soul out of the cage, then Crowley for sure won't be able to do it. He had to be leading them on & getting them to do his bidding only to reveal later on that he can't break Sam's soul out. If letting Lucifer or anyone/anything else out of the cage was that easy, why didn't the former leader of hell release Lucifer or even Lilith? Instead they had to make sure the events went down so that the Colt opened the gateway to hell at the end of the Season 2 finale which released Lilith, who appeared in Season 3.

I'm not sure anything we learned in this episode is fact. Castiel didn't know where Sam's soul was or who raised his body. Crowley is a demon, which are known to lie like crazy & don't have nearly the power of an angel. So is Sam's soul really in hell? I think the only thing for sure we know is that Samuel made a deal for some unknown reason.

Another thing about the cage---how can anyone break into it when the 2 most powerful archangels can't get out? The only ones powerful enough to do it are God and maybe Death, but even Death was trapped there until the Apocalypse & Lucifer broke him out.

Also, regarding Samuel's deal---why did he even make a deal? If he was in Heaven, how did he get down to Earth? Crowley didn't do that. So once on Earth, why make a deal? Did he do it to bring Sam back from the pit? I'm confused about this.

[tam123]

maybe samuel wasnt in heaven, but in hell, after doing something all people in the family do...made a deal in his life at some point

as for the mythos: i think being the king of hell is like being the source in charmed. your imbued with the "magic" or mojo as he called it, of hell to become strong enough to rule it. That mojo could be enough to break someone out

also, to your query as to why didnt azazael break lucy out by himself and needed to go through the seals in that case: quite simply, because there were seals around the cage than. now there are none, yes the cage is still locked, but now it seems anyone can break them out....why anyone would want to tho, is the question

besides, remember what belthazar said earlier in the series when questioned about getting souls. souls are power, and as the king of hell, you have control of all the souls of hell, thats got to give you some major mojo

[xrayvision]

maybe samuel wasnt in heaven, but in hell, after doing something all people in the family do...made a deal in his life at some point

as for the mythos: i think being the king of hell is like being the source in charmed. your imbued with the "magic" or mojo as he called it, of hell to become strong enough to rule it. That mojo could be enough to break someone out

also, to your query as to why didnt azazael break lucy out by himself and needed to go through the seals in that case: quite simply, because there were seals around the cage than. now there are none, yes the cage is still locked, but now it seems anyone can break them out....why anyone would want to tho, is the question

besides, remember what belthazar said earlier in the series when questioned about getting souls. souls are power, and as the king of hell, you have control of all the souls of hell, thats got to give you some major mojo

Two things:

1. If Samuel was in hell for something he did before Azazel killed him, then by now he would have been turned into a demon. And demons don't get resurrected in their old bodies and also like Ruby said when Dean got back from hell, a demon can't resurrect someone & break their soul out of hell. I think someone upstairs is working with the main man downstairs (Crowley) for some unknown purpose.

2. It still doesn't make sense with Lilith. In Lucifer Rising, we got the flashback scene of Azazel talking to Lucifer after possessing the priest & he mentioned how Lilith was buried too deep in hell, in other words she was somewhere, perhaps the cage, that not even the strongest demon could break her out of. Whether she was in the cage or someplace not as deep, I would think the strongest demon (Azazel?) would have broken her out without the Colt back then than going on that long quest to do everything he did to get Jake to open the gateway to hell.

[Super-ville]

What I took Crowley to mean was that he was now the most powerful being in Hell, aside from Lucifer and Michael. Like, before Lucifer was the king if Hell, but now its Crowley. But I don't get how a demon could be that powerful, especially since Lucifer was in the cage before as well, but I'm pretty sure that he's more powerful than Lilith was.

[xrayvision]

but I'm pretty sure that he's more powerful than Lilith was.

Maybe now. But if Lilith was the main demon in hell, she would be much more powerful than him since he's your average issue black-eyed crossroads demon who got there while had Lilith gotten to that spot, she would have been the Alpha demon with eyes other than black in that same spot. I think any alternately colored eyed demon would be stronger than Crowley if they were the king/queen of hell. Whether Lilith as she was back then was as powerful as Crowley is now is another thing. We have yet to see how powerful Crowley is. Until he shows us what he can do, I say he's bluffing. He has influence now & may be able to control armies of hellhounds, but as far as powers he can use with his vessel when in or out of hell, I don't know.

[Anno_Domini]

I can get into Crowley getting Sam out of the cage via a spell or something and keeping his soul, but I don't understand how, if Samuel was in Heaven, Crowley was able to bring him down.

I think, with Crowley having become the King of Hell, he has so much power as the King AND the Crossroads King, that he soon found out how to bring Sam out of the cage, but keep Lucifer and Michael in the cage. Azazel needed to have a special child to let Lilith out, but that's a different story; from what I gathered, Lilith was just among the other demons as for Lucifer, he's in one sole place, so actually, it may be easier for Crowley to try and get someone out. And plus, it's a human, not a demon, so that should be easy as well than with Lilith's situation.

Blackmailing Samuel somehow, and blackmailing Dean AND Sam by Sam's soul. Interesting for what it's worth, but I didn't imagine it.

[LuthorKent90]

but I don't understand how, if Samuel was in Heaven, Crowley was able to bring him down.

Indeed.

[aklia5]

my bad... this might be in the wrong thread

[xrayvision]

I can get into Crowley getting Sam out of the cage via a spell or something and keeping his soul, but I don't understand how, if Samuel was in Heaven, Crowley was able to bring him down.

I think, with Crowley having become the King of Hell, he has so much power as the King AND the Crossroads King, that he soon found out how to bring Sam out of the cage, but keep Lucifer and Michael in the cage. Azazel needed to have a special child to let Lilith out, but that's a different story; from what I gathered, Lilith was just among the other demons as for Lucifer, he's in one sole place, so actually, it may be easier for Crowley to try and get someone out. And plus, it's a human, not a demon, so that should be easy as well than with Lilith's situation.

Blackmailing Samuel somehow, and blackmailing Dean AND Sam by Sam's soul. Interesting for what it's worth, but I didn't imagine it.

I thought the special child was done to give Lucifer a vessel. Also, by screwing up people like Sam, Jake, and the others by turning them into psychic children, he was able to get them to do what he wanted since he couldn't enter that gigantic devil's trap & needed someone to do it. I just fail to understand why he couldn't bust Lilith out the easy way like he supposedly could bust Sam's soul out. Whatever part of hell she was in, I don't think it was that hard for the strongest demon at the time (Azazel) to bust her out. I guess if she was in the cage, Lucifer would have been freed with her when the gateway opened. If Supernatural's hell is anything like Dante's Inferno as Crowley quoted tonight, she was in one of the innermost circles of hell, maybe the 8th circle.

I just don't think Crowley is that powerful, at least not until I see it. Also he didn't talk about the urgency of getting Sam's soul out of hell before it turns into a demon, something that he may want, or maybe not since Sam the demon would be incredibly powerful & could be a problem to Crowley.

[Anno_Domini]

I thought the special child was done to give Lucifer a vessel. Also, by screwing up people like Sam, Jake, and the others by turning them into psychic children, he was able to get them to do what he wanted since he couldn't enter that gigantic devil's trap & needed someone to do it. I just fail to understand why he couldn't bust Lilith out the easy way like he supposedly could bust Sam's soul out. Whatever part of hell she was in, I don't think it was that hard for the strongest demon at the time (Azazel) to bust her out. I guess if she was in the cage, Lucifer would have been freed with her when the gateway opened. If Supernatural's hell is anything like Dante's Inferno as Crowley quoted tonight, she was in one of the innermost circles of hell, maybe the 8th circle.

I just don't think Crowley is that powerful, at least not until I see it. Also he didn't talk about the urgency of getting Sam's soul out of hell before it turns into a demon, something that he may want, or maybe not since Sam the demon would be incredibly powerful & could be a problem to Crowley.

I didn't want to get into the whole special child thing as I that's why I said that's a different story. I realized the special child thing was meant for Lucifer's vessel, but the vessel was very much necessary to open the Devil's Gate as well. Lilith was trapped among the many other demons that escaped alongside her, but with Lucifer's cage, it's one human among two archangels, so it may actually be a little more simple in trying to revive Sam's body.

Now, about Sam's soul, there could be two explanations:

1.) Crowley was able to resurrect Sam's body and he is holding Sam's soul, or...

2.) Crowley only had a spell that could bring back Sam's body, but his soul is still inside the cage and that's information that he isn't wanting to slip out until he gets what he wants(the location of Purgatory).

Still confused over Samuel Campbell though. I wonder if he was even in Heaven. Sometimes, I think that when a demon controls a person, they're automatically assigned to Hell; it would add some more depth as to why Crowley wanted to use Samuel as he was in Hell and not use Sam and Dean's father since he's in Heaven, as if I were to make a decision as Crowley did, I would have wanted to use Sam and Dean's father just because it would be much more easier for Sam and Dean to trust their own father then grandfather.

[xrayvision]

I didn't want to get into the whole special child thing as I that's why I said that's a different story. I realized the special child thing was meant for Lucifer's vessel, but the vessel was very much necessary to open the Devil's Gate as well. Lilith was trapped among the many other demons that escaped alongside her, but with Lucifer's cage, it's one human among two archangels, so it may actually be a little more simple in trying to revive Sam's body.

Well, the way I look at the vessel thing is that anybody could have opened the gateway to hell, but I doubt anyone normal would if asked by Azazel. Since he had a lot of power & influence over the psychic children (except Sam, who knew better & hated Azazel), they were his best option to open the gateway. I do think however that Azazel could have gotten some non-psychic normal person to open the gateway to hell by taking his or her loved ones hostage & not releasing them until the gateway was opened or until that giant devil's trap was broken. So this makes me wonder why did he have to go through all that trouble to release Lilith. I definitely don't think Azazel knew Sam was Lucifer's perfect vessel or about Sam's (or Dean's) lineage or even cared about that since that's something the angels knew about & the angels were the ones who wanted to see Dean & Sam both say yes to their respective archangels. Azazel & the other demons just wanted Lucifer released & to reign supreme on Earth.

Now, about Sam's soul, there could be two explanations:

1.) Crowley was able to resurrect Sam's body and he is holding Sam's soul, or...

Well, I think we should not be using resurrect because as Ruby said, no demon could resurrect someone, just heal their bodies from certain injuries. Was Sam's body destroyed in hell or was it just pulled out? If Crowley does have the power to have pulled out his body, then he obviously left the soul in there for leverage. But I think Crowley is lying, because of what Castiel said. He talked about some being with major muscle being the one to have pulled Sam out. And the way he left it, I don't think it's resolved who that was. Crowley may have been a part of it, but if he did, I definitely think he had some help from an unknown player in the game. The way Castiel left it, it seems like the identity of who pulled Sam out is not resolved as we're being led to believe by what Crowley said. I would be surprised if Balthazar had something to do with it after what he said about souls. And maybe someone else other than Balthazar.

2.) Crowley only had a spell that could bring back Sam's body, but his soul is still inside the cage and that's information that he isn't wanting to slip out until he gets what he wants(the location of Purgatory).

I think this is a possibility but there are many more possibilities, like Crowley is lying through his ass because he's a filthy demon & demons screw the Winchesters over every chance they get. Crowley even screwed Bobby over when in Swan Song he told Bobby the deal is settled but in Weekend At Bobby's we found out otherwise. I wouldn't put it past Crowley at all to string the Winchesters along and when the fulfill their end of the deal, he reveals, "Oh by the way, I'm not the one who took Sam's body out of hell" or "I can do many things, but I can't get Sam's soul out of the cage".

Even if Crowley does have the power, by the end of this season, which is the soonest Sam will get his soul back, it will be 2 years that it's been in hell. Dean said that 4 months on Earth is like 40 years in hell. 2 years on Earth will be like 240 years in hell. By then, there's no way Sam's soul won't turn into a demon. Whether Crowley knows what's happening in the cage or not, he definitely knows the soul-to-demon transformation process since it happened to him & knows what will likely happen to Sam, if it didn't happen already. Whether or not Sam's soul turning into a demon will be done by Michael or Lucifer, his soul will definitely become a colored eyed demon and one that is much stronger than Crowley, and probably stronger than Azazel or Lilith ever were because his soul seems to have the demonic powers attached to it, which will make him like a super demon. There's no way Crowley wants something like that out of the cage. So whether he actually can get his soul out or is totally lying about it, why would he actually do it? There's no way he would. I'm sure Sam's soul in the end will be released by someone other than Crowley, because Crowley has a very good guess what's going on in the cage if he doesn't know, and he knows that there's a huge chance releasing Sam's soul could spell the end of his days as king of hell.

Still confused over Samuel Campbell though. I wonder if he was even in Heaven. Sometimes, I think that when a demon controls a person, they're automatically assigned to Hell; it would add some more depth as to why Crowley wanted to use Samuel as he was in Hell and not use Sam and Dean's father since he's in Heaven, as if I were to make a decision as Crowley did, I would have wanted to use Sam and Dean's father just because it would be much more easier for Sam and Dean to trust their own father then grandfather.

Well, no matter how badly Crowley wants it, he has no influence in Heaven, unless there's someone up there working with him, and that wouldn't surprise me. Balthazar seems very suspicious at the moment. I think if people controlled by demons ended up in hell, then Mary Winchester would have ended up there since she did make the deal with Azazel & broke it. Samuel falling down definitely makes me think an angel in Heaven is playing on the wrong side. And like I said Balthazar is first on my list of suspects. If Samuel's soul is one of the souls he did something with, then dropping him down to Earth & forcing him to deal with Crowley could be how Samuel got in his predicament. I can't guess any further, but this seems like a probable scenario.

[Super-ville]

But was it ever said that a crossroads demon could only bring a soul back from hell? I mean, i wouldnt think that a demon would be able to mess around in Heaven, but what about Dean's deal in season 2? where was sam at that time? heaven or hell?

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

and also, everyone seems deadset on the idea of Michael and Lucifer torturing sam in hell. i mean, we dont know what the cage is like. it could be just a box, or it could be like the chains that held dean in hell. who says they would be able to do anything at all in the high security box?

[tam123]

well again like i said above, lilith and azazael could not just do it themselves when they were the kings/queens of hell because of the 66 seals. the cage was designed not to open until those seals were shattered.

now that those seals are shattered, a demon of lilith's or azazael's power level should have been able to do what crowley has done

do i think he did it by himself? maybe not, maybe he used death like lucifer was using death, or he had some angelic help, either way, he did something

as for the reason why he might be going for purgatory, ever wonder what happens to demons who are slayed? and angels who die? they dont go back to hell or heaven, do they just, bam, disappear? maybe they all end up in purgatory, maybe thats why he wants purgatory, to try to release an ultra power demon from the past that was killed, maybe azazael, or lilith

as for sam turning into a demon, in ruby's own words, she was down there for 1000s of years before she was turned fully into a demon, it happens yes, but it takes a while for the soul to burn out and turn into a demon, i dont think 240 years would do it. 240 years in hell would be torture yes, and he should come with some sort of baggage when and if he comes back, but i don't think he would be a demon yet

[Anno_Domini]

My idea: Crowley wants Purgatory and to rule it with Lilith, who was known as her lover by Becky in "The Real Ghostbusters".

I think, with Purgatory being known as a place where the supernatural creatures/monsters go to after they die, then it can be suspected that it's also a place where demons go when they die as wel as fallen angels(which has always been brought up beforehand) and when Lilith died by breaking the 66th Seal, she was sent into Purgatory and Crowley wants to rule that place with her as he'll be the King and Lilith will be the Queen.

I think that Crowley was able to bring Sam out of Hell, but not his soul, and MAYBE(if Samuel didn't lie about being in Heaven), Crowley was able to pull Samuel Campbell down to use his expertise with capturing the Alphas, who are the only ones that have an idea of Purgatory's location(It could've been easy to bring someone out of Heaven since Heaven was in pure chaos and wouldn't really notice someone being brought down). I can't say that Crowley would have blackmailed Bobby's soul(when Crowley had it) so Sam and Dean would help, but he could be using Sam's soul against the brothers, so they would help Samuel out. And with Sam's soul, perhaps Crowley will try to get Sam's soul out once his mission has been completed as maybe Crowley has a way to retrive Sam's soul from the cage as it was mentioned Purgatory is adjacent to Hell, so maybe there's a backdoor into the ninth circle(I have an idea of Purgatory surrounding Hell).

And speaking of Crowley, I had an episode idea of the audience finding out that Crowley has a plan to find Purgatory WITH Lilith and trying to convice Lilith to not accept her fate with the Seals through flashbacks, and then also us seeing Bela making a deal to kill Sam to keep her life in which, in present time, Bela has become a demon and a servant for Crowley.

Just some ideas, lol.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

as for the reason why he might be going for purgatory, ever wonder what happens to demons who are slayed? and angels who die? they dont go back to hell or heaven, do they just, bam, disappear? maybe they all end up in purgatory, maybe thats why he wants purgatory, to try to release an ultra power demon from the past that was killed, maybe azazael, or lilith

I think Crowley is telling the truth about wanting to rule over Purgatory, but I also think Crowley wants to be with Lilith once more and they can rule Purgatory together.

But to bring BACK a demon, I don't think it's possible as it'll still show how useless the Colt is.

[mkn]

Only in this episode, were we told that it took several angels to bring Dean out. I think that Crowley really did take out Sams soul, and they were saying how many angels it took justto show how powerful he is, that he could do that, as he is the king of hell. I'm not liking it, but i think this is going to be it.

i think this works better, Raphael pulled Sam out, and wanted to posses him, because Lucifer, the most crooked Angel needed him, so Raphael would try to persuade sam he is a great angel, and wants to bring peace, and that he bought him back to be one with sam...

I dont know, i mean supernatural is never a show for plotholes or anything, but Samuel coming back ?? and why does he have his soul... i hope we are just smart, and discovering this stuff before the show says yes it wasnt like this, he just tricked u.

Since we are only on episode 7, maybe this really is how it is, and they are going to expand greatly.

Also, as great an actor Crawley is, im just not... buying this great evil, i want him to have a new vessel.. to get to the next level.. robert knepper ooooooh he gives man kind the creeps