Sam is so messed up, he's even freaking out Samuel.

[LaosieM]

Maybe he can't, its possible he's too weak, kind of like how Cas was mostly human near the end of season five, only he's worse off because unlike Cas's vessel Jimmy - Lucifer can't overtly push Sam to do what he wants, so all he can do is subtley push Sam in the direction he wants him to go till he can corrupt him enough, till in a way "Sam wants the leash" and Lucifer can just take over.

But didnt he say at some point that he was back better than before? Im thinking it was the end of Swan Song....

[Anno_Domini]

I think Lucifer is a special case because he's not only a fallen angel but the devil. The demon blood drinking only applied to him. Raphael who's also an archangel had been in the same vessel all this time without it being affected. Nick was still inside his body even after he said yes to Lucifer.

But you do bring up a good question. Does an angel need a soul to occupy a body? With Michael, it would be weird, because if Adam's soul was sent to Heaven before his body with Michael fell into hell, then it would be a unique situation. Michael would be in a body of someone who said yes but the essence of the person who said yes wouldn't be in the body anymore. Would Adam's body degrade with Michael but without Adam's soul in it? I don't know.

What about Sam? Could he be possessed by an angel if it turns out his soul is trapped in hell? Maybe not. That would be another benefit of Lucifer trapping him down there---not only would it give Dean incentive to open the seals/cage again but it would also reserve Sam's body for Lucifer & prevent it from being possessed by any other angel/archangel.

Nick having to consume demon blood to handle Lucifer makes sense, of course, since Lucifer is a deformed version of an arcangel, but I'd think that, if Michael could handle a vessel-less body if Adam's soul was taken and not just the body, then I would think at least Lucifer can handle Nick's body enough to keep healing itself; but then again, if Adam's soul is gone perhaps Adam's body was slowing crumbling and Michael is in a very weak state within Lucifer's cage.

And in regards to an angel being inside Sam, I mean, it could be a possibility as anything is possible at this moment, but wouldn't Sam have been strong enough to take out his competition? He did have a semi-struggle against the Alpha shapeshifter and a Lamia to my recognition and with an angel still in Sam, those should not have been any sort of a challenge.

But didnt he say at some point that he was back better than before? Im thinking it was the end of Swan Song....

Yes, Castiel did say he was back and better than ever and I don't really think Sam has lost his soul. If anything, Sam, imho, has been mentally mind-raped and doesn't even know how much pain he really endured in Hell.

[LaosieM]

Yes, Castiel did say he was back and better than ever and I don't really think Sam has lost his soul.

Yeah I dont think he is souless either. As I just explained to a friend, I think his humanity has been diminished due to his hosting Lucifer and that, in the past year without Dean, he is scarred from that. I also think that part of this seasons story is going to be Dean helping Sam to regain at least part of the humanity he lost.

Oh and on the subject of angels occupying souless bodies, Castiel is in Jimmy's body and Jimmy is long gone so it is possible for an angel to occupy a souless body...

[LuthorKent90]

I wasn't expecting Samuel to be shocked by Sam's actions. How did Sam explain Samuel came back anyway? Was Samuel supposed to be in hell also?? If so I don't see how he and Sam both came out and Sam ends up more screwed then him.

This continual character assassination of Sam is cruel. The producers were given a fresh start in season 6 essentially, but they still decide to go the same path as before.

But, the viewers are still watching through Dean's point of view and there's something wrong with Sam as usual.

Yes as a Sam fan this really annoys me. I too thought there would be a fresh start in 6 and there'd more no blame it all on Sam, Sam made a mistake( like everyone kept reminding the poor guy last season; even though he felt terrible about it on his own) Sam is bad garbage.
Was hoping this season would focus more on mending the boys relationship but now it's gone completely the other way.

[Vergon6]

Samuel was supposed to be inexplicably resurrected just like Sam, but from heaven, not hell.

[RedPhoenix23]

But didnt he say at some point that he was back better than before? Im thinking it was the end of Swan Song....

Hmm? Whatcha talking 'bout willis?

I wasn't talking about how Cas controls his vessel now, that was an example for how he controlled his vessel when he WAS - as in the past, ie, not as he is now - before he was made whole and seeming better then before. If that's what you meant.

Oh and on the subject of angels occupying souless bodies, Castiel is in Jimmy's body and Jimmy is long gone so it is possible for an angel to occupy a souless body...

Jimmy is not gone. Cas gave him the option to die and he'd remain in Jimmy's daughters body but Jimmy begged him to take him instead because being a vessel is fairly unpleasent and clearly not something he'd want for his daughter. Cas takes the body and heals Jimmy in the process. Later on, in the next season Cas is infected by hunger because JIMMY has a thing for red meat, hamburgers in particular, so he's alive in there.

[Dexter]

I don't see how Samuel was in Heaven. This show is pretty inconsistent on that topic. Most of the people who made deals with demons were damned to Hell, while Sam and Dean ended up in Heaven after they died and Samuel was there too apparently.

If it has something to do with the bloodline, it should have been explained in S5 when that was a big deal.

[Krypto_marcus]

I don't see how Samuel was in Heaven. This show is pretty inconsistent on that topic. Most of the people who made deals with demons were damned to Hell, while Sam and Dean ended up in Heaven after they died and Samuel was there too apparently.

If it has something to do with the bloodline, it should have been explained in S5 when that was a big deal.

The brothers has saved hundreds of lives. I think God can look pass the fact that they have done some dirty deeds in the process. Sam and Dean definitely deserves Heaven, in my book.

And why wouldn't Samuel be rewarded with Heaven? All our knowledge about him comes from "In the Beginning", and if I haven't forgotten something, I don't recall him ever doing something bad.

[LaosieM]

Jimmy is not gone. Cas gave him the option to die and he'd remain in Jimmy's daughters body but Jimmy begged him to take him instead because being a vessel is fairly unpleasent and clearly not something he'd want for his daughter. Cas takes the body and heals Jimmy in the process. Later on, in the next season Cas is infected by hunger because JIMMY has a thing for red meat, hamburgers in particular, so he's alive in there.

Im going to have to go back and watch but I was thinking that at some point Cas said that Jimmy had left and he was in the body all alone... I could be wrong though... wouldnt be the first time!

[Anno_Domini]

I don't see how Samuel was in Heaven. This show is pretty inconsistent on that topic. Most of the people who made deals with demons were damned to Hell, while Sam and Dean ended up in Heaven after they died and Samuel was there too apparently.

What would make you think Samuel was in Hell before being resurrected? From what we have seen in "In the Beginning", he didn't really do anything wrong for him to be sent there after his death. And with Sam and Dean, Joshua said that God gave them salvation which is why they both were in Heaven, especially Sam who even doubted why he was up there from the get-go seeing as how he let Lucifer out of the box.

Im going to have to go back and watch but I was thinking that at some point Cas said that Jimmy had left and he was in the body all alone... I could be wrong though... wouldnt be the first time!

Yah, Jimmy's soul is still intact, but the question I wish would be answered is what exactly happened to Jimmy AFTER Castiel went back to Heaven. Either Jimmy reunited with his wife and daughter for that year, or Jimmy ended up dying and was only resurrected once again, ala Adam-style, as Castiel already promised Jimmy that he wouldn't take Jimmy's daughter as a vessel.


Edit: So it's now confirmed that an angel isn't possessing Sam's body. There is a preview clip for "You Can't Handle the Truth" and Castiel pretty much stated that if Lucifer was still using Sam as a vessel that the angels would know, and that means that they would know if Michael was wearing Sam as well.

Wonder if there could be any possibility of Sam now being SPN's version of Samael.

[xrayvision]

I wasn't expecting Samuel to be shocked by Sam's actions. How did Sam explain Samuel came back anyway? Was Samuel supposed to be in hell also?? If so I don't see how he and Sam both came out and Sam ends up more screwed then him.

No, as Samuel said, he came up from "up there" and Sam came up from "down there" (don't remember if those were the exact words he used). So he was in Heaven while Sam of course was in hell.

Yes as a Sam fan this really annoys me. I too thought there would be a fresh start in 6 and there'd more no blame it all on Sam, Sam made a mistake( like everyone kept reminding the poor guy last season; even though he felt terrible about it on his own) Sam is bad garbage.
Was hoping this season would focus more on mending the boys relationship but now it's gone completely the other way.

I don't think this is a blame it on Sam thing. As was shown by the end of Swan Song, Sam was the key in sending Lucifer back. I don't really think releasing Lucifer was Sam's fault since everyone---the angels & demons---was working to make sure it happened & that's something that just wasn't going to be stopped. On top of it, Dean made the deal to bring back Sam which cost him his life in the season 3 finale. While Dean was in hell was when Sam began to trust Ruby & when Dean broke the 1st seal. So I don't know why people are getting so defensive about Sam being at fault.

Furthermore, it's not Sam's fault why he is the way he is this season. Whether his soul is still trapped in hell or he was mindraped, whatever the reason, what happened to him was a result of an act of self-sacrifice in order to save mankind from Lucifer's wrath. So why is this being chocked up as "Sam hate"? It's just consequences of Sam's heroic act of self sacrifice & a plot based on another obstacle Sam must overcome.

And I just don't think a fresh start would work. If this season would only be about them killing monsters, how interesting would that be based on what we got for the last 5 years? It wouldn't in my opinion. Even season 1, as simple as times were back then, was building up to what we eventually got, which was a huge payoff. I think a season where they just exterminate the alphas of the various monsters they fought throughout their lives with no bigger picture would be very boring. I'm really looking forward to the possibility of the apocalypse starting again after hearing what Castiel said about Raphael being a purist.

Something else that I think will give you confidence is that the boys' relationship will mend this season. Dean will be angry & start lashing out now, but he will soon realize that it's not Sam's fault for the reasons I gave a few paragraphs above. If it turns out that Sam's soul is still in hell unlike his body, then Dean will be pissed at the archangels trapped down there & will have to make do with Sam as he is now until he's able to free his soul from hell. If Sam was instead mindraped or messed up as a result of hosting Lucifer, then he will realize that Sam needs help & his situation is hopefully temporary & is no fault of his own. As long as they keep Lisa & Ben out of the show, I think the Winchesters' relationship will have to mend because they're all they have. In that sense, it'll be back to season 1 because there won't be any Ruby, Lisa, Jo, Bela, etc. to come between them.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Jimmy is not gone. Cas gave him the option to die and he'd remain in Jimmy's daughters body but Jimmy begged him to take him instead because being a vessel is fairly unpleasent and clearly not something he'd want for his daughter. Cas takes the body and heals Jimmy in the process. Later on, in the next season Cas is infected by hunger because JIMMY has a thing for red meat, hamburgers in particular, so he's alive in there.

Exactly.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

I don't see how Samuel was in Heaven. This show is pretty inconsistent on that topic. Most of the people who made deals with demons were damned to Hell, while Sam and Dean ended up in Heaven after they died and Samuel was there too apparently.

If it has something to do with the bloodline, it should have been explained in S5 when that was a big deal.

Samuel never made a deal with a demon.

----- Added 27 Minutes later -----

Yah, Jimmy's soul is still intact, but the question I wish would be answered is what exactly happened to Jimmy AFTER Castiel went back to Heaven. Either Jimmy reunited with his wife and daughter for that year, or Jimmy ended up dying and was only resurrected once again, ala Adam-style, as Castiel already promised Jimmy that he wouldn't take Jimmy's daughter as a vessel.

I'd say Castiel was in Jimmy's body after the events of Swan Song when he went back to Heaven. He had (& still has) a huge mess to clean up in Heaven. We saw angels like Zachariah in their vessels jumping up & down between Heaven & Earth. Same with Raphael who was still in the same vessel he was in when we last saw him in Free To Be You And Me. I don't think just because angels go back up to Heaven means they just ditch their bodies. In Season 4 Cas had gone multiple times between Heaven & Earth and still had Jimmy's soul in Jimmy's body (his vessel). So after wrapping things up in Swan Song, I don't understand why things would be any different since Jimmy had been healed in The Rapture. My guess is that when Castiel is finally done with Jimmy, given he survives & isn't killed by another angel, he will let Jimmy go be with his family.

I think what you're probably questioning was when Castiel exploded thanks to Lucifer. Even then, I'd say Jimmy's soul is still inside his body. I think if God would have resurrected just Castiel & sent Jimmy's soul to Heaven, He would have resurrected Castiel (the angel) only & not his vessel's body, so he would have to find a new vessel. I think if God felt the need to reward Castiel for his work, then it would include not letting Jimmy, whose family needs him, remain dead. If God felt like He had a commitment to Castiel then it would also likely include Jimmy.

[Anno_Domini]

I'd say Castiel was in Jimmy's body after the events of Swan Song when he went back to Heaven. He had (& still has) a huge mess to clean up in Heaven. We saw angels like Zachariah in their vessels jumping up & down between Heaven & Earth. Same with Raphael who was still in the same vessel he was in when we last saw him in Free To Be You And Me. I don't think just because angels go back up to Heaven means they just ditch their bodies. In Season 4 Cas had gone multiple times between Heaven & Earth and still had Jimmy's soul in Jimmy's body (his vessel). So after wrapping things up in Swan Song, I don't understand why things would be any different since Jimmy had been healed in The Rapture. My guess is that when Castiel is finally done with Jimmy, given he survives & isn't killed by another angel, he will let Jimmy go be with his family.

I think what you're probably questioning was when Castiel exploded thanks to Lucifer. Even then, I'd say Jimmy's soul is still inside his body. I think if God would have resurrected just Castiel & sent Jimmy's soul to Heaven, He would have resurrected Castiel (the angel) only & not his vessel's body, so he would have to find a new vessel. I think if God felt the need to reward Castiel for his work, then it would include not letting Jimmy, whose family needs him, remain dead. If God felt like He had a commitment to Castiel then it would also likely include Jimmy.

I don't think you understand my question actually, lol. I understand the angels have jumped from Heaven to Earth and vice versa, but they do end up leaving their vessels between those times, as seen with Raphael when he left his vessel for the time being, which made his vessel end up traumatized and stuck in a hospital. I have no clue what Zachariah's vessel does, but the only reason Zachariah was in his vessel in "Dark Side of the Moon" is because Sam and Dean, from Zach's words, were "limited" in imagination-wise and can't see the angel's truest form. But we did see Castiel leaving Dean's car and presumably going straight to Heaven, but I don't see how he could bring in his vessel into Heaven as I don't think Jimmy is dead at all. There isn't a use, really, for the vessel of Jimmy to be in Heaven. Sure, there might be humans/souls in Heaven such as Jo and Ellen that may view Castiel using Jimmy's vessel as they are "limited" as well, but it's only what the mind sees; the actual Jimmy, imo, would/should still be on Earth while Cas was up there.

[xrayvision]

I don't think you understand my question actually, lol. I understand the angels have jumped from Heaven to Earth and vice versa, but they do end up leaving their vessels between those times, as seen with Raphael when he left his vessel for the time being, which made his vessel end up traumatized and stuck in a hospital. I have no clue what Zachariah's vessel does, but the only reason Zachariah was in his vessel in "Dark Side of the Moon" is because Sam and Dean, from Zach's words, were "limited" in imagination-wise and can't see the angel's truest form. But we did see Castiel leaving Dean's car and presumably going straight to Heaven, but I don't see how he could bring in his vessel into Heaven as I don't think Jimmy is dead at all. There isn't a use, really, for the vessel of Jimmy to be in Heaven. Sure, there might be humans/souls in Heaven such as Jo and Ellen that may view Castiel using Jimmy's vessel as they are "limited" as well, but it's only what the mind sees; the actual Jimmy, imo, would/should still be on Earth while Cas was up there.

I think the answer to that question is also in The Rapture. That episode definitely gave off the vibe that Jimmy had not been in control of his body since the very first day Castiel took control. That episode was the 3rd last episode of season 4 and Castiel did a lot of Earth-Heaven transporting & vice versa. I think Jimmy would have experienced what he did at the beginning of the episode---all that disorientation, confusion & desire to go home---a lot sooner & multiple times had Castiel ditched him every time he went to Heaven.

Another thing to note is that an angel ditching his host vessel is a very dangerous thing as seen in The Rapture, when demons came after Jimmy to find out what makes an angel's vessel tick. So that is another piece of evidence why it makes sense for Cas to bring Jimmy's "meatsuit" along on his trips to Heaven.

[Anno_Domini]

Since Castiel received Jimmy's approval to use his body as a vessel, Castiel rarely spent huge amounts of time in Heaven though, and was mostly on Earth that year trying to prevent the Seals from breaking, and the other angels, more than likely Zachariah's minions, brought him back to "change his views" and "get him back on track", so that made sense as to why his vessel wasn't necessary. But, to view Castiel's words in "The Third Man", he spent "a year as a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent", which should add some truth that Jimmy wasn't in Heaven and Cas didn't need the vessel. He belonged in Heaven after "Swan Song" since there was a war up there and Raphael was up there as well and the only time Castiel seemed to be even needed once more on Earth was when Balthazar stole God's weapons.

Yes, it is dangerous for an angel's vessel as shown in "The Rapture", but I'm sure if Jimmy did in fact return to his wife and child, the demons would not try to kill him just because, now, most of the angels are on Castiel's side except for Raphael's group.

[oldfan]

Two theories about what might be up with Sam:

i) Samuel made a deal with Balthalzar: he'd collect alphas or whatever (probably so Balthazar can use them for some mojo-enhancing ritual), in exchange for getting Sammy (and Adam) out of the cage. However, he did not read the fine print on the agreement and didn't realize that Sam would come back a little bit different.

ii) After Lucifer possessed Sam in Swan Song, he did this really weird ritual thing where he killed a bunch of demons who Sam had unknowingly been close to all his life. This was really weird, and I think it might have been a ritual that split Sam into two or more pieces, a good Sam and a bad Sam. Maybe good Sam is still in the cage, and at some point Dean will start looking for a ritual for a switcheroo spell.