So why is 2009 Dean not killed by Lucifer?

[Davis Bloome]

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I think the angels did it in such a way so that 2014Dean wouldn't remember the time travel to create a future where Dean purely makes different choices than 2009Dean will make. I think Zach purposely mindwiped time travel from 2014Dean's mind to avoid having 2014Dean tell 2009Dean about an alternative plan that didn't involve saying yes to Michael, but instead a plan that involved God.

That depends, time travel is complicated... Take Back to the Future II for example. In the year 2015, Marty 2015 gives no hint or gesture that he knows Marty 1985 is now in the future. Doesn't he remember? Also why doesn't doc 1985 instantly remember he saw himself aka Doc 1955 helping him setting up the Delorean to let Marty travel back to 1985. Another example why did Jennifer 2015 still freak out when she saw Jennifer 1985. It's understandable that Jennifer 1985 still freaks out, but Jennifer 2015 would have known that she would be there. It seems that it works in dimensions as Doc explained, so if we keep ourselves to that principle. Dean 2014 doesn't remember cause in our dimension (or that of supernatural as we know it) Dean 2009 wasn't in 2014.

Remember Marty proposed to prevent Biff 2015 giving the sports almanac in the future to Biff 1955 in the past. However Doc said that wouldn't work cause then Biff would still be rich, meaning in the current dimension Biff didn't give the almanac to himself, that was in a different dimension, where he does give the almanac to himself. Lol time is a complicated thing.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I think you just have to be a very intelligent being when bringing time travel into a movie or TV series.

Kripke did it right, imo, in "In the Beginning", but "The End" created some questions.

[Davis Bloome]

There's not really a way to figure it out. Take Terminator for example which follows very different principles. John Connor sends his dad to the past so he can be conceived. But how did this start in the first place? How did John Connor know that Kyle Reese was his dad in order to send him to the past? Because yeah his mother told him to do so, you could say. Who only knew because John Connor send Kyle into the past... So who knew first? You're in a kind of a loop here...

[LoneStar1836]

Lucifer: Kill you? Wouldn't that be a little...redundant?


Why didn't he kill '09 Dean? Because he is arrogant.

Lucifer just got through snapping 2014 Dean's neck. As far as he was concerned, the outcome favored him. I'm sure he knew the angels were messing with time travel but still believed he would be the ultimate victor in the end no matter what.


My take on the whole time travel thing...this was one of an infinite number of possible realities. Zach showed Dean the worst possible future to manipulate him into saying yes thus doing what the angels want in order to get the outcome they started this whole thing for. I think there is another way out of this whole mess that would save mankind but not let the angels have their way...but I read the rules about speculation so I'm not sure I can post that here.

Anyway as to 2014 Dean not having memory of time traveling himself, imo, going by a multiple realities theory, this particular Dean never traveled to the future otherwise I think he would have mentioned something. Or that's what I'm gonna tell myself. Yes, time travel does give one a headache. I did like "In the Beginning" better in that aspect because it wasn't as head scratching. But the important thing to come from this ep was that the brothers are back together.

[Davis Bloome]

Yeah Dean, "There is no fate except for what me make for ourselves!" Terminator 2 proves that! (Except don't watch Terminator 3 and Terminator Salvation, that might start to discourage you lol)

[xrayvision]

But if that is the case then, wouldn't that mean that the 2014 that Dean visited would no longer exist, because things had been altered by having Dean go to that time?

I agree. Man would never be able to handle time travel. lol. I think my head explodes everytime they introduce it in any show or movie.

Yes, it would cease to exist, at least the exact history/path that leads to it. But the same end result could happen. I just know it won't (Kripke wouldn't be that nasty, would he?).

----- Added 11 Minutes later -----

That depends, time travel is complicated... Take Back to the Future II for example. In the year 2015, Marty 2015 gives no hint or gesture that he knows Marty 1985 is now in the future. Doesn't he remember? Also why doesn't doc 1985 instantly remember he saw himself aka Doc 1955 helping him setting up the Delorean to let Marty travel back to 1985. Another example why did Jennifer 2015 still freak out when she saw Jennifer 1985. It's understandable that Jennifer 1985 still freaks out, but Jennifer 2015 would have known that she would be there. It seems that it works in dimensions as Doc explained, so if we keep ourselves to that principle. Dean 2014 doesn't remember cause in our dimension (or that of supernatural as we know it) Dean 2009 wasn't in 2014.

Remember Marty proposed to prevent Biff 2015 giving the sports almanac in the future to Biff 1955 in the past. However Doc said that wouldn't work cause then Biff would still be rich, meaning in the current dimension Biff didn't give the almanac to himself, that was in a different dimension, where he does give the almanac to himself. Lol time is a complicated thing.

LOL, yeah in the movies & TV, time travel seems to affect everything after it happens. But there are some inconsistencies in BTTF. Doc Brown prior to getting shot by the Libyans didn't remember helping or meeting Marty in 1955. At least he didn't mention it. Yet, everything Marty does in 1955 seems to alter George McFly's history & success when he returns to 1985. You could say that he & Doc returned to an alternate universe than the one he left and that's why they are the only ones who remember the way things were before. So in fact, they create a 1985A as a result of the events of BTTF1. It's just that the 1985A created in BTTF1 is a better one than the evil one in BTTF2 where Biff is rich & powerful.

So I'd say the same thing is true here. Dean went to the future of an alternate universe where the Dean he met there never time traveled to 2014 back when he was in 2009. Dean, unlike Marty in BTTF1, returns to his own universe since he went to the future & no past events were altered. So he was at the crossroads of choosing a destiny & his choice will make the universe he was taken to become void.

----- Added 27 Minutes later -----

There's not really a way to figure it out. Take Terminator for example which follows very different principles. John Connor sends his dad to the past so he can be conceived. But how did this start in the first place? How did John Connor know that Kyle Reese was his dad in order to send him to the past? Because yeah his mother told him to do so, you could say. Who only knew because John Connor send Kyle into the past... So who knew first? You're in a kind of a loop here...

That was a chicken-egg type paradox. John's existence depended on a person who wasn't even born yet. Wouldn't altering the future cease John's existence, i.e. end the very need to send Kyle back to 1984? It's hard to explain. In one situation they treat time as a loop, where John's existence in the future is threatened by the T-800 that was sent to 1984. But then, they completely alter the history that the T-800 in T2 tells John & Sarah but still reach the same end result. How is it possible for the Terminator in T3 & Skynet to have been created if everything was destroyed? And John should cease to exist if time is a loop since the nuclear war in 1997 would have been avoided and he would never have sent Reese to 1984. I never bought that explanation in T3. In T2 it made sense since they were using the remains of the original T-800 to do their research. At best it could be explained by a paradox in that if John ceased to exist then the future would have resorted right back to what it was shown to be in the original Terminator with the nuclear war in 1997. But the problem in T3 was that the nuclear war happened a few years later (at the end of the movie). If this is true, then everything would shift and change due to a delay in the nuclear war. This would have huge effects on John & Kyle.

----- Added 29 Minutes later -----

I did like "In the Beginning" better in that aspect because it wasn't as head scratching. But the important thing to come from this ep was that the brothers are back together.

The only issue with In The Beginning is that wouldn't John have remembered seeing Dean in the 70's?

[Davis Bloome]

So I'd say the same thing is true here. Dean went to the future of an alternate universe where the Dean he met there never time traveled to 2014 back when he was in 2009. Dean, unlike Marty in BTTF1, returns to his own universe since he went to the future & no past events were altered. So he was at the crossroads of choosing a destiny & his choice will make the universe he was taken to become void.

Well put, but I would like to explain it differently ("Here we go again..." As Marty said)

to put it simple

BTTF1
-Marty 1985 travels back in time, creating a different dimenion as he changes future events where his father is a good writer and Biff is just a carwasher. We'll call that Dimension A

BTTF2
-Marty 1985 changes the future in 2015 which is still in his own dimension.
-Biff 2015 travels back to 1985 changing the past creating a different dimension where he will be rich in future events. Dimension B
-From Dimension B Marty 1985 travels back in time, preventing future events that would have resulted in Dimension B, however since everything is set right again they return to Dimension A.

BTTF3
-Marty creates Dimension C (not very different from Dimension A as it turns out to be in the ending) where he does meet Doc 1955 again in the past to fix up the Delorean (which could have had influence on the creation of Dimension A or events that happened in that dimension like Doc getting shot).
-Marty changes Dimension C (which we could call Dimension D) since he doesn't get hit by the Rolls Royce and changes his own future. So what was the point of saving his son then?! LOL

Supernatural
-Dean 2009 in his own dimension (which we will call Dimension A) travels to the future creating a new dimension which we will call Dimension B. However in Dimension B Dean 2015 never travelled to the future. Dean 2009 goes back to the past where he creates Dimension C, where he changes future events. However this does not change Dean 2009's knowledge of the future. One could argue, how could Dean know of what happened to Sam if Dean 2015 never showed Dean 2009. Because that happened in Dimension B and not the Dimension C where he changed things for the future which probably will result in him never seeing Dean 2015, but since he already saw that in Dimension B, he doesn't have to worry about that lol.

Now if I hear the word Dimension again, my head is gonna explode!

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----

That was a chicken-egg type paradox. John's existence depended on a person who wasn't even born yet. Wouldn't altering the future cease John's existence, i.e. end the very need to send Kyle back to 1984? It's hard to explain. In one situation they treat time as a loop, where John's existence in the future is threatened by the T-800 that was sent to 1984. But then, they completely alter the history that the T-800 in T2 tells John & Sarah but still reach the same end result. How is it possible for the Terminator in T3 & Skynet to have been created if everything was destroyed? And John should cease to exist if time is a loop since the nuclear war in 1997 would have been avoided and he would never have sent Reese to 1984. I never bought that explanation in T3. In T2 it made sense since they were using the remains of the original T-800 to do their research. At best it could be explained by a paradox in that if John ceased to exist then the future would have resorted right back to what it was shown to be in the original Terminator with the nuclear war in 1997. But the problem in T3 was that the nuclear war happened a few years later (at the end of the movie). If this is true, then everything would shift and change due to a delay in the nuclear war. This would have huge effects on John & Kyle.

Perhaps however on the creation of Skynet. We don't know if somebody else had those plans. Take CGI for example. It took a great leap with ILM, which practically created it. Now I'm a Star Wars fan, so you'll hear me defending it a lot lol. Even the prequels, however that's besides the point. The point is that if ILM never made such a leap in CGI as bashers say, then somebody else would have done it... Probably much later in the future (or for us the past), but it would have happened. Somebody else would have come up with the idea. Same applies to the terminators, which is exactly what happened. By destroying the building, the chip, and the arm. They slowed down the progress on creating A.I., however somebody else took over just as somebody else would have created CGI if ILM never existed. Now there are still some plotholes that the explanation gives, I know...

[GENERALzod777]

Seriously.... All that up there is why time travel should never be invented.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

There's not really a way to figure it out. Take Terminator for example which follows very different principles. John Connor sends his dad to the past so he can be conceived. But how did this start in the first place? How did John Connor know that Kyle Reese was his dad in order to send him to the past? Because yeah his mother told him to do so, you could say. Who only knew because John Connor send Kyle into the past... So who knew first? You're in a kind of a loop here...

That's why I never liked the Terminator films. One huge flaw right there that was never answered, and there's no way of answering.

The only possible conclusion would be having an alive Linda tell Kyle to go back in time to impregnant her, and then that changes the first timeline as Linda keeps dying in all other possibilities, but John is alive.

And now that McG is helming the movies, I doubt an answer will be mentioned. Yes, McG is a smart man, but I don't think he's that smart.

The only issue with In The Beginning is that wouldn't John have remembered seeing Dean in the 70's?

When would be the right time to tell Dean, "Hey, I saw you thirty years ago"? Lol. It's something important, yes, but John has been busy without the boys and when he was with the boys. Plus, you must think that is why John gave the car to Dean, maybe John does remember, but never brought it up, but just gave his car back to Dean.

[LoneStar1836]

The only issue with In The Beginning is that wouldn't John have remembered seeing Dean in the 70's?

When would be the right time to tell Dean, "Hey, I saw you thirty years ago"? Lol. It's something important, yes, but John has been busy without the boys and when he was with the boys. Plus, you must think that is why John gave the car to Dean, maybe John does remember, but never brought it up, but just gave his car back to Dean.

Agreed.

Either that or he just totally forgot about it considering he had very little actual interaction with Dean in that episode. Considering Dean graduated from high school in 1997/8 and this took place back in 1972. 25 years is a long time to remember some random stranger's face. You'd think he might would but who knows.

[He Who Lurks]

From the way that the show presents time travel (if Dean going into the future was in fact time travel and not merely a very realistic illusion of Zachariah's making) seems to be that the past is immutable, but the future is not. When Dean gets sent into the past, his actions create a stable time loop. In fact, if Dean hadn't been sent into the past, that would have changed the timeline. His presence is what caused a large number of the events in that episode to occur. Therefore Dean had to go into the past, because he already had.

The episode about the future is different. Zachariah is only showing him a possible future, otherwise there wouldn't be any point to sending him at all. If the future couldn't be changed then that's that. Lucifer wins, end of story. Therefore the future can't be unchangeable. The only possible way for this to work is the so-called "many worlds theory". There is a universe for every possible outcome, meaning an infinite number of universes. If Dean had actually traveled into THE FUTURE and back, then Future Dean would remember it, and furthermore he would have remembered that Future Dean died in the raid on Lucifer and that they were unsuccessful at killing him, and therefore he wouldn't have formed the raid if it wasn't going to accomplish anything.

The only way that it could work without paradox is if it was just one of an infinite number of possible universes, and by showing him this one, Zachariah was hoping that Dean would make different choices to bring about a different one, which is exactly what Dean did, just not the one that Zachariah wanted.

Edit: Of course, this is assuming that the show is attempting to create a logical portrayal of time travel. Lots of shows don't even bother, just lumping it all together with no pattern or care and hand-waving it as a timey-wimey ball, encouraging you not to think about it too hard, because it can't hold up under scrutiny. I'm not sure if Supernatural is doing this or not, but it doesn't really seem like it so far.

[Chulance]

Lucifer is overconfident

[SupermanRox]

Lucifer is overconfident

I agree

[Ginx]

Lucifer is overconfident

Either that or he knows by killing 09 Dean he could mess up his chance to get Sam and be exactly where he wanted to be. So he didn't mess with the past because he was happy with his future. My head hurts.

[Davis Bloome]

I don't think Lucifer was being overconfident. I think he was trying to threaten Dean, by acting overconfident just to lower Dean's own confidence, saying that whatever he did, he would always lose. He was trying to break Dean, by showing what happened to Dean himself and what happened to Sam.