the airplane?

[InactiveUserID]

Well, traditionally, the apocalypse is like Satan's day in court. This is when he presents his case. The whole thing about how we're not worthy of saving and the angels should never have been made to take a back seat to us. (I think this is part of what Lucifer referred to in code when he said his crime was loving God too much.) So God will hear Lucy out before the delete takes place, like the way we feel we owe prisoners health care and the right to file lawsuits. And God may be really listening more than Zachariah expected, since God appears to be fine with the delay in Michael's arrival, giving Lucifer a chance to take his turn on the catwalk (Earth).


I think the plane was too smooth and too benevolent to be anybody else.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Yeah why not remove Lucifer, why not remove evil, why not remove war, disease... Why can't he.
Because God is fiction... at least imo, no offence.

Anywho...people asked why "delete" Lucifer(which I didn't know that Lucifer was a computer program), but you can't...because everything has to have good and evil. Hence: free will and choice.

[Davis Bloome]

Oh don't worry, I was just fooling around. You don't have to explain things to me. It's okay to explain it to your fellow-believers. But I think they already know this what you just said. Or they'll find another excu... I mean reason to explain why God just can't delete things

Look excuse me if I sound disrespectful. But I just think it's weird when people on this forum start comparing things concerning God to this series. Maybe God to them and to you isn't fiction, but the series is.

[chole_fan]

Oh don't worry, I was just fooling around. You don't have to explain things to me. It's okay to explain it to your fellow-believers. But I think they already know this what you just said. Or they'll find another excu... I mean reason to explain why God just can't delete things

Look excuse me if I sound disrespectful. But I just think it's weird when people on this forum start comparing things concerning God to this series. Maybe God to them and to you isn't fiction, but the series is.

Look I respect your right to not believe...I really do. But there are those who do believe and I peronsally enjoy these conversations...with input from both sides.

Yes, we are all very much aware the SN is a fictional show, but it has obvious religious overtones...I don't think anyone can argue that. So bringing God into the discussion is not so weird. Part of why I love SN is because it does inspire intelligent debate and discussion about topics that go much deeper than a simple TV show.

[Davis Bloome]

I respect that, I do. Sorry if my sarcasm goes to far sometimes. That's just me. Anyway, personally I like debates. I debated a lot on other forums. And religion wise me and my fiancee put up a hard fight sometimes because we had to. Religious people couldn't sometimes handle our opinions on religion. If I say that God is as fictional as the easterbunny... Then to you it might sound disrespectful, but to me it's just a comparison. Personally I think a religious debate is also dangerous cause it can get out of hand sometimes when one can't respect the opinion of another. And I know that many think I don't respect their opinion, but I do! I'm just sarcastic sometimes... It's just a trait of my personality.

[chole_fan]

I respect that, I do. Sorry if my sarcasm goes to far sometimes. That's just me. Anyway, personally I like debates. I debated a lot on other forums. And religion wise me and my fiancee put up a hard fight sometimes because we had to. Religious people couldn't sometimes handle our opinions on religion. If I say that God is as fictional as the easterbunny... Then to you it might sound disrespectful, but to me it's just a comparison. Personally I think a religious debate is also dangerous cause it can get out of hand sometimes when one can't respect the opinion of another. And I know that many think I don't respect their opinion, but I do! I'm just sarcastic sometimes... It's just a trait of my personality.

I get that...trust me. I am a Christian and even I shy away from "religious people". Those ultra radical nut jobs...and there are unfortunately a lot of them out there who have no respect for anyone. And I may talk passionately about my beliefs, but I would never ever try to force them on someone else. That's your decision, not mine.

And your right, religious debate can get out of hand. It's a touchy subject because it is so personal to most people.

I figured you didn't mean any real offense, I just wanted to clarify that, for me at least, I just enjoy the discussion.

[Davis Bloome]

Me too, I'm glad we're on the same level with that. And yeah Religion is a touchy subject. And sometimes it got out of hand indeed. But that is because some people don't know what a debate is. To me debates about religion is not about convincing people or converting them. It's about sharing your knowledge, your views with others, so you can learn more. Unfortunately not everyone agrees on that. You want to have a go?

Can I ask you about mourning. People mourn the dead. They feel sad? Why... Isn't that selfish? After all, their family members go to a better place (if they indeed go to heaven, not hell hopefully). Then shouldn't you make it feel glad that they have gone to a better place. You will miss them of course, but you will see them. Life is short, but in heaven you will see them for all eternity (if you believe that). So shouldn't you look forward to that, instead of mourning. Like I said I find it a bit selfish... Don't mourn the dead. Cherish the life they had. I do mourn because I know I will never see them again...

[chole_fan]

Me too, I'm glad we're on the same level with that. And yeah Religion is a touchy subject. And sometimes it got out of hand indeed. But that is because some people don't know what a debate is. To me debates about religion is not about convincing people or converting them. It's about sharing your knowledge, your views with others, so you can learn more. Unfortunately not everyone agrees on that. You want to have a go?

Can I ask you about mourning. People mourn the dead. They feel sad? Why... Isn't that selfish? After all, their family members go to a better place (if they indeed go to heaven, not hell hopefully). Then shouldn't you make it feel glad that they have gone to a better place. You will miss them of course, but you will see them. Life is short, but in heaven you will see them for all eternity (if you believe that). So shouldn't you look forward to that, instead of mourning. Like I said I find it a bit selfish... Don't mourn the dead. Cherish the life they had. I do mourn because I know I will never see them again...

It's funny you bring that up...my pastor just preached on this a few weeks ago. And you know what...your right. If you believe and you know your loved one is in heaven then yes, it is selfish. It's selfish for us to want to keep them here, in an imperfect world riddled with disease, war, crime, hurt, etc... instead of letting them move on to heaven and an eternity of peace and love. But from a strictly human standpoint, it's just hard to accept you will never see someone again in this life and it may be a while before you are reunited...That you will have to live the rest of your life without them and that makes people sad.

On the other hand if you are a Christian and you do believe in heaven and hell and someone you love dies and you are not sure where they will end of for eternity...that is agonizing. Thinking that a loved one might be subject to an eternity of pain and torture...thats hard to deal with. I think this is why a lot of Christians seem so "pushy" sometimes. They don't want to have someone they know/love die without the assurance of heaven. It weighs heavy on the heart after they die if you know you never bothered to at least try and share what you believe.

So I guess I pretty much agree...mourning is a selfish act given that you know the person is in heaven. But I think it is a necessary one. Not for the dead, obviously, but for those who are left behind. It's a step in the process of moving on and living life without that person, even if it is temporary.

However, If you don't know where someone may have gone after death then I don't see it as selfish. I see it as a true sadness for the fate to that person.

Okay, my turn! I have a question...How do you deal with tragedy/hardship in your life?? For me personally my faith gets my through times of crisis and tragedy because even if I don't understand why it happened, I believe that God is still in control. I guess it helps me not feel so alone in bad times. I've often wondered how people who don't believe in a higher power deal...I'm not sure I could.



ETA: Just realized this conversation has taken a bit of a left turn and is getting a bit OT...so back on the topic:

Still believe it was God who put them on the plane. Just don't feel Lucifer had that much to fear...no real reason to send them away. No way Sam and Dean could have defeated him in that moment, he could have taken them both out then and there. Plus it doesn't make sense that Lucifer would "cure" Sam of his blood addiction. So my money's still on God being behind it all...

[Davis Bloome]

As you can see I replied in your profile, cause I don't want mods to accuse us of spamming. Obviously the second post in line is the beginning.

[He Who Lurks]

While God's existence in real life is a topic that has been and will continue to be debated, likely forever, I think that we can all agree that IN THE SHOW God exists. What's up for debate is whether he actually interferes in events. The angels in general seem to be of the opinion that God either has no interest in the affairs of his creations, or isn't willing to actually do anything to help or hinder them if he is interested. Prior to 5.01, this assumption seemed to be entirely correct. Things on Earth were really (if you'll forgive the expression) going to Hell in a handbasket, and nothing happened which would indicate that God was at all concerned with the fate of the "good guys".

Granted, He could have been acting all along in His aggravating "mysterious ways", but that isn't a very useful assumption, as that could go for every single event that has ever happened in the show, period. Not only that, but the Event in 5.01 seems to undermine the "mysterious ways" crud because in this instance God isn't working in mysterious ways at all. Instead, in 5.01, we see something which at first blush can only be described as a miracle. Sam and Dean are teleported out of harm's way and onto a plane flying over the convent. Why a plane? Why that plane specifically? Why not drop them off just outside the blast radius? Hell, why not drop them off at their car?

There seem to be a number of different possibilities. I will lay them out as I see them:

First, God exists and He is the one who saved the Winchesters. If this is true, then it seems like a New Development, because if this is the way that God works then God had never helped the boys before or else it would have also been "obvious". This leads me to believe that God was either unwilling or unable to help the boys before that moment. If God was unwilling, then it implies that before He had been content to see how the Winchesters handled things and only stepped in when He saw that the boys had majorly screwed the pooch. It also implies that He either wanted Lucifer to be freed or didn't particularly care one way or the other. If God was unable to help then He was constrained in some way, either by His own doing or by the doing of others. It seems incredibly unlikely that God could be limited by someone else, which means that He must have done it to Himself. Maybe He promised He wouldn't interfere unless Lucifer was freed or something. Who knows? This plotline is ripe for exploration.

Second, God didn't free the Winchesters, and Cas was either mistaken or knowingly lying to Zach. In my opinion, this would be the best way to go. As I've elaborated, I don't think that putting an active God into the story is the best idea. It destroys drama and bashes people over the head with something that should really remain enigmatic. There are all sorts of beasties that could have teleported the Winchesters out of the convent, so the writers have plenty to choose from.

That said, it seems obvious to me that it was God and I'm going to be in for a long season of self-righteous Castiel speeches.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Eric Kripke should be reading this. Maybe it can make him laugh as well.

[Davis Bloome]

That's a nice theory, Lurker (if you don't me calling you that). I'd like to ask, cause I don't remember that well. Didn't the show say, or at least hint that there was life on other planets in this universe? In that case God is a very busy man, so he can't just interfere when there's trouble on one planet. Okay maybe he'll make an exception now that Lucifer is here.

[He Who Lurks]

Well, Zach did say that "this isn't the first planetary enema that we've administered". That either means they did it before on other planets, or they did it before on Earth. He could have been referring to the Great Flood, or maybe even the extinction of the dinosaurs or other mass extinction events that happened in the past on our planet.

Even if there are other planets, that doesn't mean that God cares less about this one, or that He's "busy" somewhere else. I mean, He's God. Infinity divided eighteen-quadrillion ways is still infinity.

[Lexgirl33]

Well now we know who put them on the plane and brought Cas back God did.