Timeline Issues- Movie Vs Show

[Yoshua]

He would, if he eventually returned to the past.



Probably because they want to keep the damage to the timeline to a minimum. At least by sending just Kyle back, most people could write him off as just some nut job. You start sending back too many people from the future (and terminators for that matter), then the timeline gets wrecked. Time travel to the past only really "works" when the people living in the past aren't aware you're from the future. Once they become aware of it, it alters the way "normal" time plays itself out. It's kind of like the prime directive on Star Trek. They don't interfere in the evolution of other cultures (whenever possible).

Time travel in terminator doesn't work that way as proven in the television series and through interviews.


John Connor in the series would eventaully return to the past, that is a given considering it is the Sarah Connor Chronicles and she would have to be a part of the show for it to continue. When John Connor went to the future, no one there knew him. And through interviews that is the truth of the matter. They weren't playing a trick on him saying they didnt know him. They truly didn't know him. However he still existed, which means kyle didnt have to be sent back to bring him to life, and when he was taken out of time and placed into the future he no longer existed from the day he left till the day he landed. When he gets shipped back time would change again.





As for the timeline getting wrecked. One terminator going back leaving technology erases the timeline that existed when they shipped it back. instantly. And re writes it. One man being shipped back erases the timeline as well. As proven by T-2's judgement day moving, and again in T-3 judgement day moving again. Soon as a change happens the original timeline is erased. The people might not be, but they no longer exist in the same form they did before the shift.


Sending 1 man back or 20 men back to get the job done would do no more or less damage to the timeline, but it would give them a chance to get the job DONE instead of being a pebble in a pond.

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I like that someone else realizes that this is likely the way things started, I have proposed this before and it seems to really piss off some people. It is the only logical beginning to the story, it explains John Connor initiating his own conception and does away with the whole paradoxal loop issues.

What's cool is that it leaves room for a pretty sweet bombshell as far as John's original father. We will likely never know for sure who it was, but it leaves room for some interesting story telling.

It pisses people off because they only believe in true loop time travel instead of string theory. I agree, the original John Connor had a different father. We as viewers may never know how that John Connor was leading the resistance to victory, for that matter after every time shift the victory may be different.

[HeroesUnlimited]

Time travel in terminator doesn't work that way as proven in the television series

Actually, they never really "proved" anything in the TV series. Young John never had a chance to go back to his time. The show was canceled first. If others could travel backward in time, why couldn't young John? I've never seen any mandate, prohibiting it.

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John Connor in the series would eventaully return to the past, that is a given considering it is the Sarah Connor Chronicles and she would have to be a part of the show for it to continue. When John Connor went to the future, no one there knew him. And through interviews that is the truth of the matter. They weren't playing a trick on him saying they didnt know him. They truly didn't know him. However he still existed, which means kyle didnt have to be sent back to bring him to life, and when he was taken out of time and placed into the future he no longer existed from the day he left till the day he landed. When he gets shipped back time would change again.

They never said how far into the future young John actually went. It's entirely possible they just haven't met the guy yet. I think the fact that he still existed DOES prove that he eventually goes back. If he doesn't go back, time doesn't play out like he's supposed to, Kyle Reese doesn't go back and John Connor doesn't exist. I realize there are folks out there who think it's still possible for John to exist even if Kyle doesn't go back, but it just isn't possible. The genetic material that was a part of Kyle Reese (which went into the creation of John Connor) didn't just materialize out of thin air. It needed to come from somewhere.

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As for the timeline getting wrecked. One terminator going back leaving technology erases the timeline that existed when they shipped it back. instantly. And re writes it.

How do you know that's not the way Skynet was supposed to be formed in the first place? You're talking about RADICALLY advanced technology taking over the world in less than a quarter century from 1984 (our original starting point). Technology doesn't evolve THAT fast. For it to evolve that fast, it needs a boost. Having access to tech from the future could be EXACTLY what caused Judgment Day to happen as quickly as it did. Had the technology evolved on its own without any time travel, you're probably looking at 22nd century date for Judgment Day.

One man being shipped back erases the timeline as well. As proven by T-2's judgement day moving, and again in T-3 judgement day moving again. Soon as a change happens the original timeline is erased. The people might not be, but they no longer exist in the same form they did before the shift.

Not erased. Altered. They didn't "erase" Judgment Day. They just pushed it back a few years. They delayed it when they destroyed the Cyberdyne building. As for people no longer existing in the same "form", their experiences may have been altered somewhat, but they are still the same person they were on a genetic level. Their mom is still their mom, their dad is still their dad. You start messing with the circumstances of someone's conception and you run the risk of wiping out that person's existence.

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Sending 1 man back or 20 men back to get the job done would do no more or less damage to the timeline, but it would give them a chance to get the job DONE instead of being a pebble in a pond.

Sure there's a difference between sending 1 back or 20. Sending 1 back didn't work. It didn't have the desired result. Sending 20 back dramatically increases your chances of success. With regard to polluting the time line, consider the amount of "evidence" you're leaving behind in the past. The folks at Cyberdyne were able to "hide" the arm and the chip from the first terminator from the public. You send back 20 terminators are you're talking about a militia. That kind of assault would attract media attention. Once footage of a terminator (with exposed metal) went public, then the timeline gets altered in a MUCH bigger way. Suddenly the general public has proof of deadly cyborgs from the future. They KNOW what's coming. Sending back only 1 or 2 reduces the chances of widespread panic. It can be much more easily written off as people just being "crazy".

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It pisses people off because they only believe in true loop time travel instead of string theory. I agree, the original John Connor had a different father. We as viewers may never know how that John Connor was leading the resistance to victory, for that matter after every time shift the victory may be different.

I prefer to look at it this way. What would have happened if Kyle DIDN'T go back in time? What would Sarah's life had been like without any tampering from the future? Chances are, she would have married and had multiple children. Would she have had a boy? Maybe. Would she have had more than one kid? Probably. Would she have named any of her male children John? Not likely but possible. Kyle didn't just bring back his sperm (at the risk of sounding crude - sorry if I did). He also brought back an ENTIRE IDENTITY. He brough back a name. Maybe if he didn't come back, Sarah goes on to have a boy 10 years later in life and names him "Jeff". Would "Jeff" have gone on to lead the resistance the same way John did? Who knows.

[Yoshua]

if you want to know how I know then do some searching for some recent interviews before the show was cancelled, specifically one with brian austin green to get some insight into what the producers were doing witht he next season. Everything I said was true regardless of if you want to believe it or not.

Terminator worked on string theory, not true loop. Even in the movies John Connor says 'this is not the future my mother warned me about, everything is happening to fast'


IE: things changed.

As for how do I know that's not how skynet was supposed to be formed in the first place?

Judgement day changed. The dates changed, everything changed. The original judgement day was erased. It was erased from the timeline. Then it happened at a later date, differently then originally predicted.

It was erased from the timeline twice. Using the word 'moved' doesn't make any difference. It didnt happen on the date it was supposed to. Which means it was erased from that date. and changed.


I don't know how people can hold on to true loop time travel theories in terminator when over and over again they are presented with evidence to string theory.

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I prefer to look at it this way. What would have happened if Kyle DIDN'T go back in time? What would Sarah's life had been like without any tampering from the future? Chances are, she would have married and had multiple children. Would she have had a boy? Maybe. Would she have had more than one kid? Probably. Would she have named any of her male children John? Not likely but possible. Kyle didn't just bring back his sperm (at the risk of sounding crude - sorry if I did). He also brought back an ENTIRE IDENTITY. He brough back a name. Maybe if he didn't come back, Sarah goes on to have a boy 10 years later in life and names him "Jeff". Would "Jeff" have gone on to lead the resistance the same way John did? Who knows.

Since you asked a direct question there that I can answer I will.

You have time line A

John Connor is born and then judgement day happens. Skynet gets the ability to time travel and sends a T800 back to kill him. At which point John sends one of his commanders back to save her. Kyle Reese


Time Line B

Kyle and the T800 changes the timeline, John Connor is still born but now his father is Kyle Reese. Same name, same mom, more information and better prepared. Since he is better prepared he accomplishes his goals to save humanity and knows how to re program terminators. Skynet attemps a second attempt on his life and John doesn't want to expend a human life so he sends back a terminator to protect himself.


Time Line C

Judgement day has been avoided twice and pushed to different dates. This time John Connor again defeats skynet but not before they send back a terminator to kill his lieutenants. Skynet has learned from its previous mistakes and now goes after the people who support John Connor. This would be T-3. This time around John Connor gives his life to defeat Skynet in the future so it is up to Kate Brewster/Connor to protect the lieutenants. She sends the terminator backt o protect them, little did they all know that John Connor would be in the vicinity of an attack. This attack was planned just prior to judgement day to do maximum damage, judgement day happens and john and kate survive. They now help and join the resistence to bring down skynet

Timeline D

T-4 no more time travel, now we get to see the resolution, however nothing between a and d is the same as it would have been if skynet never sent that first terminator back in the first place.



Mind you, our viewership only follows the life of this John Connor. And no one else. we do not see all the alternate timelines, however in the show SCC we got to see glimpses of them.

[Exedore]

TSCC certainly worked on string theory but the movies are a big mess. T1 was a perfect loop, T2 left things open ended and it could either way. T3 and T4 just changed too much for it to be a loop anymore. String theory would work best for the movies too but I don't think they will ever put that much thought into it and go with the popular loop scenario anyway, even though it won't make much sense. It took balls for TSCC to send John to the future, completely changing the timeline.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Terminator could never have been a loop, John is basically his own father if you believe in the loop, he initiated his own conception- it just isn't possible.

Has Cameron ever said whether he hashed out the mechanics of "The Terminator" before he wrote it? Obviously as a stand alone they don't have to matter, but he was the one to make T2, so I would be curious to know whether he has ever articulated his intent.

[Exedore]

Impossible? Eh? How is it anymore impossible than the rest of the stuff in the franchise anyway? Terminator is pure fiction and it's not even close to hard sci-fi. Every piece of fiction has its own internal rules no matter how utterly absurd those rules may be. It is not like temporal loops are unique to the Terminator franchise. It's been done many time before and it still shows up in books, tv and film today. It may sound absurd but it is a perfectly valid plot device. It's fantasy after all.

Personally I prefer an alterable timeline myself. But I admit that T1, on its own, is designed to be a perfect loop. T2 is open ended while the rest are easier to reconcile with an alterable timeline than a loop. Taking all the films into context, I like to believe that there was an original timeline where Kyle was not John's father (and therefore John was not the same person). But that's just my take on it.

[HeroesUnlimited]

if you want to know how I know then do some searching for some recent interviews before the show was cancelled, specifically one with brian austin green to get some insight into what the producers were doing witht he next season. Everything I said was true regardless of if you want to believe it or not.

Interviews with cast members aren't really relevant. What happens on screen IS. You shouldn't have to do research in order to follow a television show. Until I actually see it on screen, then I'm not really going to acknowledge it (whether or not Brian Ausin Green says it). I put those interviews into the same category as a special feature on a DVD. Entertaining as a "supplement" but nothing more.

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As for how do I know that's not how skynet was supposed to be formed in the first place?

Judgement day changed. The dates changed, everything changed. The original judgement day was erased. It was erased from the timeline. Then it happened at a later date, differently then originally predicted.

It was erased from the timeline twice. Using the word 'moved' doesn't make any difference. It didnt happen on the date it was supposed to. Which means it was erased from that date. and changed.

It never got "erased". If it did, it NEVER would have happened. It was only delayed. Like John said in TSCC. "You did change the future, you just didn't change it enough." (or words to that effect). Had they been successful in T2, that would have been the end of it. All they did was push back the date things eventually happened. There's a certain "inevitable" quality to Judgment Day. It's going to happen, no matter what.

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Since you asked a direct question there that I can answer I will.

You have time line A

John Connor is born and then judgement day happens. Skynet gets the ability to time travel and sends a T800 back to kill him. At which point John sends one of his commanders back to save her. Kyle Reese


Time Line B

Kyle and the T800 changes the timeline, John Connor is still born but now his father is Kyle Reese. Same name, same mom, more information and better prepared. Since he is better prepared he accomplishes his goals to save humanity and knows how to re program terminators. Skynet attemps a second attempt on his life and John doesn't want to expend a human life so he sends back a terminator to protect himself.


Time Line C

Judgement day has been avoided twice and pushed to different dates. This time John Connor again defeats skynet but not before they send back a terminator to kill his lieutenants. Skynet has learned from its previous mistakes and now goes after the people who support John Connor. This would be T-3. This time around John Connor gives his life to defeat Skynet in the future so it is up to Kate Brewster/Connor to protect the lieutenants. She sends the terminator backt o protect them, little did they all know that John Connor would be in the vicinity of an attack. This attack was planned just prior to judgement day to do maximum damage, judgement day happens and john and kate survive. They now help and join the resistence to bring down skynet

Timeline D

T-4 no more time travel, now we get to see the resolution, however nothing between a and d is the same as it would have been if skynet never sent that first terminator back in the first place.



Mind you, our viewership only follows the life of this John Connor. And no one else. we do not see all the alternate timelines, however in the show SCC we got to see glimpses of them.

I don't subscribe the the multiple timeline theory. I believe there is a single timeline, that gets changed a little each time someone travels back in time.

[Yoshua]

I listed the on screen references. You ignored them... How do you not subscribe to multiple timeline theory when both jesse and derek have different memories and it is shown on screen.


Once it is changed then what originally happened.... doesnt happen. It is erased because it doesnt happen in the same way it did. it is erased, and then if circumstances make it happen again, it is written back into the timeline.

Such as judgement day. It is mans destiny to kill themselves to the point of despair and it is Johns seeming destiny to rescue what is left of mankind when the dust settles.

[HeroesUnlimited]

I listed the on screen references. You ignored them... How do you not subscribe to multiple timeline theory when both jesse and derek have different memories and it is shown on screen.

Then how do YOU explain one of them just hopping over to the other one's timeline?

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Once it is changed then what originally happened.... doesnt happen. It is erased because it doesnt happen in the same way it did. it is erased, and then if circumstances make it happen again, it is written back into the timeline.

Then it isn't really "erased". It's delayed. Pushed back. The only way I'd buy the use of the term "erased" is if something they did made a PERMANENT change to the timeline.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

There is no hopping from one timeline to another. Jesse grew up in the timeline that was created after Derek arrived in the past therefore that is which one she went to when she went back, there was no timeline hopping.

Then how do YOU explain one of them just hopping over to the other one's timeline?

It is baffling to me how people can watch or read something and not finish with the slightest comprehension of what they just invested their time in.

[Jigga]

Like I said, T3 puts the biggest kink for anyone who believes that there's only a single time line.

The whole idea of the T-X being sent back to eliminate the lieutenants create a paradox. Her killing any of the lieutenants means they are erased from her memory, which means she would not have killed them?

[Harrison_Bergeron]

It just means that the "Terminator" universe is not bound by the same rules as the "Back to the Future" Universe, once something exists it cannot un-exist, not even a "thought". It is just proof that Terminator exists in a multi-dimensional string theory universe.

[HeroesUnlimited]

There is no hopping from one timeline to another. Jesse grew up in the timeline that was created after Derek arrived in the past therefore that is which one she went to when she went back, there was no timeline hopping.

So then there AREN'T multiple timelines then. Just a single timeline that underwent a change. This is exactly what I said in the first place.

It is baffling to me how people can watch or read something and not finish with the slightest comprehension of what they just invested their time in.

I sure hope that wasn't directed at me. I "understand" just fine. There's a difference between "not understanding" and having a different take on what happened. Just because someone has a different take on things than you have, doesn't mean they didn't understand it. That's a very arrogant attitude to have, quite frankly.

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It just means that the "Terminator" universe is not bound by the same rules as the "Back to the Future" Universe

I do not understand this preoccupation some people have with Back to the Future...

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once something exists it cannot un-exist, not even a "thought". It is just proof that Terminator exists in a multi-dimensional string theory universe.

Then what exactly was the point of T1? Why even bother killing Sarah Connor if John Connor is just going to "exist" anyway? Kind of blows the entire premise out of the franchise out of the water, doesn't it?

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I finally have someone to put on my K-site ignore list!

[Jigga]

It just means that the "Terminator" universe is not bound by the same rules as the "Back to the Future" Universe, once something exists it cannot un-exist, not even a "thought". It is just proof that Terminator exists in a multi-dimensional string theory universe.

BttF is flawed in regards to multiple vs single time lines. On one hand, you have Marty disappearing because he screws up his dad's meeting with his mom (single time line). On the other hand, when Marty arrives "home," he actually isn't home at all. He ends up in a different future than the one he was from and he retains all his memories from his previous life (multiple time line).